When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins?Blue from West Oz |
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Master and Commander Posts: 2360 | Subject: When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins? A discussion on a Facebook page for Aussie Submariners, one of my Shipmates stated we were the first. I said that the USN were the first nation to wear them, going back to WWII. My mate may be thinking the first nation to wear them in their present position and as a metal badge compared to a sleeve badge. But I still believe you guys came first, is that correct?? Here is a history of ours.... cheers, Blue :-) Commander Cook believed that Australian submariners would be proud to wear a properly designed badge worn on the left shoulder. At some time between 1964-1965, he put forward a proposal that a submarine badge be devised along those lines. Commander Cook recalls that the proposal was not well received until it reached Rear Admiral VAT Smith RAN (later Admiral Sir Victor Smith KBE) who convinced the Naval Board of the day that the proposal should proceed subject to a suitable design being developed. The design was the work of Commander McIntosh, the submarine project officer in 1965. The Dolphins on his submarine supporter’s tie inspired it; the crown was drawn from the florin (the two shilling piece before decimal currency was introduced). Stokes, of Melbourne, who manufactured many service badges, produced the Badge. Mr. Stokes reported that it was by far the most handsome badge his firm had made. As one of the protagonists for the submarine badge Commander Cook, who had been promoted and appointed Director of Submarine Policy in February 1966, was given the distinction of being the first submariner to wear the Dolphins. The first qualified Australian submariner to be awarded his Dolphins was G.J. Currie, who was also the first Australian submariner to return to Australia in 1966 prior to the formation of the Australian Submarine Squadron and joined the RN Fourth Division as spare crew. In 1968 the officers and crew of HMS Trump, the last British submarine in the Royal Navy’s Fourth Division based at Sydney, were given Australian submarine Dolphins to wear for a year. At the end of that year the sailors were asked to fill out a survey. Ninety nine per cent of the crew were in favour of wearing the badge and the design. It was not until 1972, having assessed the value of the Australian submarine badge, that the Royal Navy issued a variation on Captain McIntosh’s design. | ||
| Ralph Luther |
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| Subject: RE: When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins? Seek and you shall find. Knock and it will be opened on to you. Ask and you shall receive. US Navy Submarine Dolphins On 13 June 1923, Captain E.J. King, Commander submarine Division Three (later Fleet Admiral and Commander in Chief, U.S. Fleet, during WW II), suggested to the Secretary of the Navy (Bureau of Navigation) that a distinguishing device for qualified submariners be adopted. He submitted a pen-and-ink sketch of his own showing a shield mounted on the beam ends of a submarine, with dolphins forward of, and abaft, the conning tower. The suggestion was strongly endorsed by Commander Submarine Division Atlantic. Over the next several months the Bureau of Navigation (now known as BuPers) solicited additional designs from several sources. Some combined a submarine with a shark motif. Others showed submarines and dolphins, and still others used a shield design. A Philadelphia firm, which had done work for the Navy in the field of Naval Academy class rings, was approached by the Bureau of Navigation with the request that it design a suitable badge. Two designs were submitted by the firm, and these were combined into a single design. This design was executed in basrelief in clay. It was a bow view of a submarine, proceeding on the surface, with bow planes rigged for diving, flanked by dolphins in a horizontal position with their heads resting on the upper edge of the bow planes. Today a similiar design is used: a dolphin fish flanking the bow and conning tower of a submarine. On 20 March, 1924, the Chief of the Bureau of Navigation recommended to the Secretary of the Navy that the design be adopted. The recommendation was accepted by Theodore Roosevelt, Jr., Acting Secretary of the Navy. His acceptance is dated March 1924. The submarine insignia was to be worn at all times by officers and men qualified in submarine duty attached to submarine units or organizations, ashore and afloat, and not to be worn when not attached. In 1941 the Uniform Regulations were modified to permit officers and men qualified who were eligible to wear the submarine insignia after they had been assigned to other duties in the naval service, unless such right had been revoked. The officers' insignia was a bronze, gold plated metal pin, worn centered above the left breast pocket and above the ribbonsand medals. Enlisted men wore the insignia, embroidered in silk, white silk for blue clothing and blue silk for white clothing. This was sewn on the outside of the right sleeve, midway between the wrist and elbow. The device was two and three-quarters inches long. In 1943, the Uniform Regulations were modified to provide that "Enlisted men, who are qualified and subsequently promoted to commissioned or warrant ranks, may wear enlisted submarine insignia on the left breast until they qualify as submarine officers, at which time this insignia would be replaced by the officers' submarine pin." In mid-1947, the embroidered device shifted from the sleeve of the enlisted men's jumper to above the left breast pocket. A change to the Uniform Regulations dated 21 September 1950 authorized the embroidered insignia for officers (in addition to the pin-on insignia) and a bronze, silver plated, pin-on insignia for enlisted men (in addition to the embroidered device).  | |||
| Blue from West Oz |
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Master and Commander Posts: 2360 | |||
| Ric |
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Plankowner Posts: 9191 Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | |||
| Blue from West Oz |
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Master and Commander Posts: 2360 | |||
| Ralph Luther |
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| Subject: RE: When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins? I know you folks down under talk a little strange at times, however, I thought you could read fairly well.  | |||
| Blue from West Oz |
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Master and Commander Posts: 2360 | Subject: RE: When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins? Ralph Luther - 2012-05-18 6:52 PMI know you folks down under talk a little strange at times, however, I thought you could read fairly well. It was in American...not proper English!! ;-) | ||
| Ralph Luther |
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| Subject: RE: When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins? You have a point there | |||
| Ric |
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Plankowner Posts: 9191 Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | |||
| GaryKC |
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COMSUBBBS Posts: 3877 Location: Kansas City Missouri | Subject: RE: When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins? (ricfart.jpg) Attachments ----------------  ricfart.jpg (97KB - 681 downloads) | ||
| Pedro |
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COMSUBBBS Posts: 2974 Location: Liverpool, England | Subject: RE: When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins? Blue, I was with the 4th in Sydney 1964-66 on HMS/M Tabard. At the time there was a woven submarine badge (available in red and gold thread) sold on proof of qualification in slops but were not issued. This was a particularly crude and ugly looking thing that was supposed to be worn above the left cuff of your jumper. It was disdainfully called “Sausage-on-a-stick” because that is what is looked like (see below) and hardly anyone I knew in boats even bothered sewing it on. As far as we were concerned we had the HM Submarines cap tally and it was all we needed, along with the pungent smell of diesel to set us apart us from the rest of the Navy.  I remember Trump’s crew coming back to Dolphin from Oz and according to their accounts apart from senior rates and 50% of the wardroom; nobody else was over enthused about the new dolphins or the prospect of having them as a badge. However, I must agree with Mr Stokes whose company designed and produced the Aussie dolphins that they were a beautiful design. They look exactly as dolphins should look, smooth and sleek, unlike the scaled semi-heraldic dolphins later incorporated onto the RN insignia. I still have my original set issued a couple of years before my time was up; but I confess to wearing a set of Oz dolphins on my blazer these days, given to me by the late Tommy Gould VC, and I because I happen to think they are more presentable. In the past, I have had a few comments of disapproval from two RASM’s, a Captain Submarines and other senior grunters about my preference in wearing them but their opinions no longer bother me one way or the other. Since the 70’s the dolphins have acquired an elite status all of their own which is as it should be. Doubtless, they are still the great ground bait or leg-openers that they used to be for those serving submariners that wear them; but more importantly denote your own pride in qualification to other members of the armed services past and present. I am waiting for the soon to be released updated version of Aussie kissing kippers - see sneak preview below.  Pedro Edited by Pedro 2012-05-18 9:05 AM | ||
| iPOD |
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Master and Commander Posts: 1247 Location: Rockingham Western Australia | Subject: RE: When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins? So Ric you are telling me the spoken and written word in the USA is evolution of the language, I think maybe more like the decomposition of the language!  | ||
| Ric |
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Plankowner Posts: 9191 Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | |||
| Pedro |
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COMSUBBBS Posts: 2974 Location: Liverpool, England | Subject: RE: When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins? Ric, As much as the French like to think and feel that their language should be the international lingua franca of the world, it is obviously not the case. On the evolvement side, since WWII and their induction into the EU their own language has adopted and accepted numerous English and US English words and expressions into their national tongue. It has also been heavily influenced over time by the screening of American / British films and television shows on their national networks. As to other evolvement/de-volvement I would agree. French, as spoken today in La Belle France does not match that spoken in French Canada or that by the Cajuns in Louisiana as they have developed their own patois versions over the centuries. I recall a group of French tourists in New Orleans, listening to audio tapes of modern-day Cajuns speaking their 450-year-old version of the French language and later unanimously dismissing it as completely incomprehensible and utter rubbish. I can imagine that same group being equally critical of any Vietnamese, Tahitian or Congolese spoken versions of their precious lingo. BTW what happened to the dolphin thread? Pedro | ||
| Blue from West Oz |
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Master and Commander Posts: 2360 | |||
| Park Dallis |
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Old Salt Posts: 419 Location: Anchorage, Alaska | Subject: RE: When did the USN OFFICIALLY award the use of Dolphins? Blue from West Oz - 2012-05-18 5:08 AM Ralph Luther - 2012-05-18 6:52 PMI know you folks down under talk a little strange at times, however, I thought you could read fairly well. It was in American...not proper English!! ;-) Uhhhhh... since when do Ozzies speak or understand "proper English"? The world wonders. | ||
| Boy Throttleman |
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Old Salt Posts: 431 | |||
| Palm Bay Ken |
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Great Sage of the Sea Posts: 539 Location: Palm Bay, Florida | |||
| Blue from West Oz |
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Master and Commander Posts: 2360 | |||
The Naval Board accepted the design and production of the Dolphins went ahead. On 25 July1966 the RAN issued Navy Order number 411, which covered who was eligible to wear the submarine badge and how.