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Master and Commander
Posts: 1247
Location: Rockingham Western Australia | Subject: Ok what boat and who got hung?
I especially like the comment "Well there goes the mail".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrKHLQMA_5U&feature=related |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
Priorities don't cha know?  |
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Plankowner
Posts: 9191
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
The sub is the USS Georgia SSBN 729 and the tug is the Secota YTM-415 (Formerly YTB-415). |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2191
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula) | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
Ric, when and where? before SSGN conversion? |
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Plankowner
Posts: 9191
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
I don't really know but according the comments section it was filmed in 1986.
On 22 March 1986, near Midway Island, Secota had just completed a personnel transfer? with the USS Georgia when the Secota lost power and collided with the Georgia because that took off before the tug was clear of the submarine. Secota sank, ten crewman were rescued but two drowned. Georgia was undamaged. |
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Crew
Posts: 66
Location: CT | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
It happened 86 timeframe during a BSP off Midway Island |
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Plankowner
Posts: 9191
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
What is truly maddening is trying to read the comments by folks who have no clue about almost anything about what should have been done.
Makes you wish birth control was retroactive!!!!
The sad thing many have probably reproduced and passed that gene on already. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1856
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
DAMB! That is scary! That tug went down in seconds after clearing the boat. Must have been the poor snipes in engine room that drowned. And the guys on the sub could do nothing except rescue those that swam free. It would be interesting to read the report of inquirey of exactly what happened. I don't understand how a tug could incure damage to its hull from minor collision with a sub. Seems to me that tugs are built to withstand bumps and scrapes, after all, that is what they do for a living.
Steamboat sends |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2490
Location: East Coast of Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
Wondering the same thing. Only thing I can guess is when the boat answered an ahead bell, the screw whacked the engine room. I think there is a stern wake from the boat before the tug got clear. I'm guessing the main engine on the tug was taking water from all the smoke it was letting out.
Can anyone guess if the screw of the boat is near enough to the surface to strike the tug?? I'm guessing yes.
Ron |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1534
Location: NE Florida | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
The personnel transfer was done at slow speed without incident. After casting off, the tug's diesel shut down. The conning officer went hard right rudder and ahead full in an attempt to kick the stern away from the tug. Bad move. Tridents don't turn quickly.
The tug slid down the side of Georgia until it hit the starboard stern plane and the starboard stern plane stabilizer (a vertical structure at the end of the horizontal stern plane - like a winglet on a commercial jet) and was holed by it. The tug got the diesel going again at this point, but it was too late. Eventually, the tug slid off the end of the stern plane, filled, and sank.
USS Georgia was undamaged.
Coyote
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1856
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
Hind sight is 20-20, but the Conn should have backed down emergency, to my thinking.
Steamboat sends |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2360
| Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
steamboat - 2011-12-22 2:45 AMHind sight is 20-20, but the Conn should have backed down emergency, to my thinking.Steamboat sends
'backed down emergency' ? not sure what language that is, but if it equates to 'Stop Together' then that seemed to me at least as the right thing to do.
'Stop Together' I am realising is if you have two screws like we did, I guess the Georgia has only one?
Anyway, when it all boils down to it, I wasn't paid for those type of decisions, the CO and his Officers were.....and I am sure they made the correct decision at the time.
Blue :-)
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Plankowner
Posts: 9191
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
Your 'Stop Together' would equate to our "All Stop". All Stop covers it, no matter how many screws you have turning over.
'backed down emergency' should be "All Back Emergency" meaning you open the throttle all the way while in a backing gear.
To get from an "ahead" bell to an "astern" takes a few seconds as the ahead throttle must be closed and an astern throttle opened. At any rate to get to one from the other the shaft needs to come to a stop at some point. The hopes of swinging the stern away from the tug was thought most likely the best at the time, as you can see, seconds were critical and still didn't save the tug.
If you read the maddening comments section under the video you will see a few from men who were aboard and witnessed the accident. Ignore the internet trolls who just love to bitch. and complain.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1576
Location: Wollongong, NSW | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
For us Blue, that would have been "Full astern together," followed by a "Stop Together" as soon as the way came off.
Notice no swimmer of the watch on the casing (dressed and ready to enter the water). Easiest way to get tired swimmers out of the water is to have four people - two each side using a standard fire hose under the shoulders to lift people up. The broad band of the fire hose fits neatly around people and doesn't cut into them. When we have people in the water we don't have long before they may be lost. Things happen very fast (experience as a man overboard) and can use up a huge amount of energy in seconds.
The hull on the tug would just be standard plate and coming down on the edge of the planeguard would slice it open immediately. The per square inch pressure would have been enormous.
The life-jackets seemed to be very bulky - were they inflatable or permanently filled? |
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Plankowner
Posts: 9191
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
Being a former WW II tug it may well have been a timber hull not steel. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1856
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
Didn't mean to cause a flap about the backing order, my only experience was on WWII , 2 screw diesel boats. Regarding the timing factor involved in man overboard rescue, it was amazing that some of the crew were not sucked under when the tug sank (or did they)? They all did seem to have life jackets on. When I was in the Navy in the early 60's, we talked casually about ships sinking, but we all thought we were immortal. This goes to show how events can get out of control in just seconds, perhaps by something that was not anyone's fault (perhaps an overworked, aging tug well past its prime?)
Steamboat sends |
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Plankowner
Posts: 9191
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
No flap. We were just exchanging info on terminology differences in Navies. |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 560
Location: Minot, Maine | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
Holland Club - 2011-12-20 9:38 PM
Can anyone guess if the screw of the boat is near enough to the surface to strike the tug?? I'm guessing yes.
Ron
Some of those tugs have a draft of 16 to 18 feet, so I would guess so! |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2490
Location: East Coast of Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
According to the specs posted on line, Secota's draft was 9' 7".
The explanation of getting it from the stern plane tab makes sense to me. I am from the 'screw guard' navy so don't know about them new fangled thingies. Too bad about the 2 crew members who didn't make it though.
Merry Christmas , John.
Ron |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 715
Location: Conway, NH | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
The life-jackets seemed to be very bulky - were they inflatable or permanently filled?
Those were kapok life jackets; permanently fiber filled. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1247
Location: Rockingham Western Australia | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
I'm thinking that when you've got 19,000 tons moving forward there's not much hope of pulling her up in the time they had, all stop and hard right rudder would have been my guess to at least try to protect the rudder, planes and screw.
But hey what the hell would I know I was jus t their to answer bells not order them! |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1576
Location: Wollongong, NSW | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
The prop is deep enough not to broach when running on the surface, it would not have touched the tug. Had the prop done so, it would have been a write-off and the shaft could have been bent.
We see the tug riding over the planeguard. Had the boat had a cruciform rudder/plane structure, things would have been different for both parties.
I surmise the tug was holed near the bow and the water just flowed downhill through the engine area - probably not a watertight bulkhead anywhere and filled from the stern until down she went. Anyone below deck in the tug would have had a little time to get out but an almost impossible task if wearing a kapok filled life jacket.
If an emergency evacuation is not practiced on a regular basis, there are likely to be casualties in the real thing.
The then Lcdr Woolrych as CO of Otway was a very firm believer in emergency evacuations; our drills improved the timescale dramatically.
I never had experience in a steam powered submarine but a "full astern" in a frigate was answered very quickly. The ERAs on the throttles knew their stuff. |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 560
Location: Minot, Maine | Subject: Guess this is a bit bigger than a YTB...
16 ft draft fwd.
 (L1110758 (Medium).JPG)
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 L1110758 (Medium).JPG (60KB - 1488 downloads)
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Senior Crew
Posts: 160
Location: Hillsboro, OR | Subject: RE: Ok what boat and who got hung?
Here is an informed opinion:
http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2010/12/guest-post-uss-secota-ytm-415-incident.html
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Ok what boat and who got hung?
