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dex armstrong |
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COMSUBBBS Posts: 3202 Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: California fires Just watched the Sunday edition of George Stephanopolis's show. It was amazing. George had Diane Finestein and Duncan Hunter on. They are polar opposites politically, but enjoyed a very civil, respectful and mutually congratulatory exchange. It was, to say the least...very refreshing, and I would hope a harbinger of more bipartisan cooperation, but I doubt it. They made some very interesting points....First, with the civil reponse of law enforcement, the fire fighting teams and the depleted Natiional Guard units totally consumed with fighting the fires, there has been nearly no reports of looting. There was fear of what they call "brush nesting camps of migrating illegals" that these transient people would seize the opportunity to ravage the vacated communities. That apparently never happened. They both spoke of the almost unprecidented spirit of community cooperation. It seems that neighbor to neighbor help and cooperation has been seen on an unexpected scale not characteristic of the commonly held view most people have of Californians. Next...There was a complete absence of political fingerpointing, blame laying or an attempt to make political hay out of this tragic situation. I was astounded at the civility of the conversation and especially the mutually complimentary parts of the discourse. They both agreed that there has to be a rollback of certain environmentally imposed restrictions that will allow communities to clear-cut brush that becomes wildfire fuel for these wind driven infernos. This practice was initiated in and around San Diego after the last major bout with the damndable fires and has proven its' worth and effectiveness in this round of out-of-control fires. Both praised the leadership of Conan the Barbarian...both in the assembling and managing of State Resources and on site appearance and morale building. All in all, it was the most positive Republican/Democrat exchange I have heard in ten or fifteen years. They may be back ripping each other's heads off next week...but for a "brief shining moment there was a Camelot." Congratulations CALIFORNIA....You have shown us what good people can do when they come together and unite in common cause....Oh Yes...Governor Arnold allowed the use of imprisoned convicted fellons, who volunteered...to join the firelines with no promise of future consideration of special treatment or reduction of time, except a record notation of special vollunteer service at personal risk for future parole board consideration. This action provided drastically needed manpower for the fireline. According to CNN there have been NO reports of prisoner misconduct, disciplinary problems or escape. The only report of failure to follow directions involved prisoners giving up their box lunches to displaced children. Makes you glad you live in this GREAT COUNTRY... DEX | ||
| dex armstrong |
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COMSUBBBS Posts: 3202 Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: California fires Governor Arnold stated today that "California will track down and bring to justice anyone participating in setting fires and prosecute them to the full extent of the law." Three cheers fot the Terminator....I didn't catch the whole interview but got the gist that they already have two of the rotten SOB's in custody. You wonder what goes on the the mind of such an idiot. DEX | ||
| Stoops |
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| Master and Commander Posts: 1405 Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: California fires two of your better posts, Dex! I agree heartily. I didn't see the program.....I just don't have faith in talking heads anymore, but from what you described, I'd have to say it was refreshing. We like to go back and relive our youth.....hell, at our age, now we thrive on it! And I think back to the Kennedy-Nixon debates....and no matter which side of the aisle you were on, they both conducted themselves in a manner that would let each of them walk away as "statesmen". There was still a sense of propriety and decorum. Their private lives, while speculated upon in private, never became headlines, or even mentioned in the news.... Hell, I remember The First Family Album...still have a copy of it......It was funny as hell....and looking back on it now, was very innocent compared to the "let's cut their throats and make them suffer" attitude of candidates today... Well, Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore.....but unlike Dorothy, we can't go home again. How do you put the genie back in the bottle? Enjoyed your thoughts, thanks | ||
| Stoops |
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| Master and Commander Posts: 1405 Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: California fires There is some truth there, Vic. It is much easier when the state leaders accept their repsonsibilities willingly and professionally.....and California, for all its faults....is a fantastic example of how that was accomplished. I am proud of them as I have stated in the past. No whining, no crying, no demanding from the feds....just a bunch of neighbors pulling for each other and helping each other....damn....makes you proud..... I'll echo what Dex said.....it was very refreshing to see a bunch of people pulling together for a common good/goal without having their damn political parties tatooed on their foreheads. | ||
| Stoops |
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| Master and Commander Posts: 1405 Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: California fires I hear you Vic, but it wasn't all the rich folks from the depraved villages of Hollywood....there are some brothers of the 'phin involved too....and other folk that don't qualify for the "rich and famous".....and you still don't hear any whining..... Matter of fact, I would have guessed the Hollywood types would have been in the front of the line to whine and complain and blame it on the Bush admininstration....but you never heard a word about it..... I just gotta appreciate the way Southern California reacted.....like humans, instead of zoo animals......Holy smokes....there is hope.... | ||
| TSpoon |
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| Great Sage of the Sea Posts: 561 | Subject: RE: California fires Very damn few of the lost homes were of the movie star/rich and famous type. Most were of working stiffs. There are over 2,500 lost homes, do we have that many movie stars? I think not. I have watched pictures of regular folks poking through the ashes looking for small momentos. A couple of guys were interviewed who built their homes with their own hands, hardly rich and famous. Thousands were hosued in the San Diego stadium, fed and cared for by good planning and action on those plans. Plans enacted by locals in control and acting, not waiting for the Feds. San Diegos plans were not left sitting in a parking lot. Sure there is a difference in fire and water, but both areas have repeated disasters and both have had time to plan for more. California planned and acted, NO sat and asked for a hand out. Hell they are still waiting andasking for a hand out. No raping, murders, looting, stealing in the stadium in California. WHY? The answer is as simple as black and white. San Diego and Los Angeles have shown the country what can be done on the local level and not begging for Federal help. NO should take notice, fire their local leaders, elect new ones, and prepare for the next hurricane. It will come just like more fires will come in California. T.Spoon, DBF | ||
| TSpoon |
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| Great Sage of the Sea Posts: 561 | Subject: RE: California fires Vic, I just re-read your last post: =============== "Well friends, after the debacle our federal government, lead by President Bush managed to get itself into following the devastation of Hurricane Katrina with it's destruction along the gulf coast, this is precisely what's happening in California with respect to the loss of property due to fire." ====================== Where is the debacle in California? We, California, are acting on our own and starting to rebuild not waiting for Federal help. Locally in northern California we are collecting clothing, food and building materials to send south. The state is and has started to police the area to be sure those affected are not ripped off by scammers, bogus contractors, and to be sure the insurance companies are fair in their settlements. The insurance companies have brought in hundredes of extra claims adjustors to speed the process. Where is the debacle? Where is the Federal Govt? Hell you are still blaming them for Hurricane Katrina and the poor planning in NO. The rest of the gulf coast hit you hardly hear about as they are acting to rebuild and not waiting for a hand out. I have old shipmates and their families who live in that area and they laugh at the local govts. One ship mate lived 13 miles south east of NO and he says the local govt is still yelling,"The sky is falling, the sky is falling" while he takes care of himself. So Vic, follow Californias lead and learn to do it yourself. T.Spoon, DBF | ||
| Blue from West Oz |
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Master and Commander Posts: 2357 | Subject: Do you guys.... ...conduct 'back burning' at all? Here in West Oz we have the foresight to do so, and have a fairly low level Summer when it comes to bush fires. However, in the East of Oz, they don't do this, and suffer on a regular basis with fires like you may recall in the news over the past years. Your comment wrt prisoners Dex, it's amazing at times when you come across convicts who are 'decent' citizens when push comes to shove. Last year two convicts ( one a paedophile and the other a druggie ) alerted me to an officer who was choking on his food, that bit of humanity they showed to an officer, allowed me to save his life. There is good in all, sometimes one has to look hard for it though. Blue *_* | ||
| JrKrup, Skimmer |
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Master and Commander Posts: 1324 Location: Oxnard, CA | Subject: RE: Do you guys.... Here in California (don't know about the other states) the prisoners that are low risk, non-violent types are allowed to volunteer for forest fire duty. The requirements are high, and it's real easy to screw up and be removed from the program. Those that meet the requirements are put through a special training course, and are put out on the job. There are restrictions. If you see two fire fighters side by side, one dressed in yellow, one in orange, the one in yellow is a pro firefighter, the one in orange is a prisoner. Their uniforms are also marked in red, CDC. - California Department of Corrections. Prisoners spend their "nights" (no matter what time on the clock) under lockup, and their "days" on the job. Their incentive is to have a day cut from their sentence for every day on a fire. I also understand they also get extra pay. While working on the fires, we civilians were NOT allowed to talk to any of the prisoners for any reason. We were not to associate with them, and were to avoid any and all contact. This is to prevent passing anything to them, most predominant, narcotics. The only people who were allowed to associate with the prisoners were uniformed police officers (of any type), and certain conspicuously marked firefighters. | ||
| Donald L. Johnson |
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Great Sage of the Sea Posts: 602 Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: Do you guys.... Blue from West Oz - 2007-10-28 5:55 PM ...conduct 'back burning' at all? Here in West Oz we have the foresight to do so, and have a fairly low level Summer when it comes to bush fires. However, in the East of Oz, they don't do this, and suffer on a regular basis with fires like you may recall in the news over the past years...... Blue *_* To a certain extent, we do. In the National Parks and National Forests, they conduct periodic "controlled burns" to reduce the brush and undergrowth, but there are many controls and restrictions on when and where they can be performed. There used to be a requirement that in foothill and fire-prone areas, a large area around each structure had to be kept clear of brush, trees, and other flamable materials, but the Enviros have been filing lawsuits under the federal Endangered Species Act and other environmental laws to prevent such clearing in many areas, and block controlled burns in "wilderness areas" and on non-federal lands. That is ONE of the reasons that the fires over the last several years have been so severe - the opposition by the Enviros to taking reasonable measures to reduce the fire threat. The recent several years' drought and the particularly strong Santa Ana winds didn't help matters much, either. | ||
| TSpoon |
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| Great Sage of the Sea Posts: 561 | Subject: RE: California fires Blue, In the colonies we have a phenomenon called 'Smokey the Bear' and he is the main reason we are covered in so much fuel for fires. The US Forest Service invented Smokey about 50 or so years ago to help prevent wild fires as they were called. It was a public relations move to get the public more involved in stopping uncontrolled burns. Now they realize that stopping all burns was not such a good idea as the fuel piles grew larger and larger. They do have controlled burns but often as not they get away and cause a lot of damage. We are now stuck between an idealistic move to stop all burning and the need to clean up the mess. All that plus a lot of folks building homes in the 'beautiful' out doors and woodlands make for fires like we are experiencing. Years back a large fire would burn a lot of trees and brush but few homes. Now a wild fire burns more homes than trees, or so it seems. My Pop told stories about the cowboys he rode with as a young fellow rounding up their cattle from the grazing lands in the National Forests in the fall. They would put a box of stick matches in their jacket pockets and strike/light them then drop them as they rode out of the hills. The small fires started would burn a few acres at most. Thus after a few years of this the brush would be kept in control and there would be more grass for their cows. The Native Americans would also practice a form of brush control using small fires. It is a long, slow process but we are learning and will clean up the mess, someday. T.Spoon, DBF | ||
| Runner485 |
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COMSUBBBS Posts: 2673 Location: New Jersey | Subject: RE: California fires From the articles that I've read 3000 miles away from the problem, seems to be a reoccurring problem. That people continue to build homes in areas that are prone to fires....Then refuse to clear the land around the homes of trees, brush etc. While I can understand the desire for a wooded plot to live on, it certainly doesn't help the matter. Another good example was a few years ago their was a law against cleaning the brush around your house because it was the natural habitat of some type of desert rat / rodent. Again a fire ravaged the area and one guy whose house did not burn had disobeyed the law and cleaned up the brush for about 100-200 feet around the house. He said in so many words screw the rat, I'm worried about my house. I don't know if he was ever tried & hung over it. But it goes to show some of the really weird things that lend itself to the unstable nature of the entire situation.....Then of course, you know have the chance that entire hillsides will slide down when the rains come..... JEEZ, GO EAST YOUNG MAN! | ||
| TSpoon |
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| Great Sage of the Sea Posts: 561 | Subject: RE: California fires Joe, The problem is many faceted but building in the midle of the woodlands is the main one. We had some horrendous fires on the South shore of Lake Tahoe this past summer and the un-cleared ground cover was a big cause. Seems the tree huggers got laws passed that will not let the home owners clear the fallen pine needles for if they did there would be more run off into Lake Tahoe and more sediment. They brag on how clear and blue the lake is and they want to keep it that way. Those pine needle fires burn hot. Now the poweres that be are going back to revisit the clearing idea. The decades of ground cover over growth, not clearing a defensable space, using wood shakes for the roof, housing density in the forests, and such all cause the current situation. Around the Sacramento area the counties are passing laws requiring defensable space be cleard around all homes in brushy, wooded areas. The fire depts go on inspections and can fine heavily those who do not. It is just a very big job to enforce but well worth the effort. But when the Santa Annas blow through the Los Angeles area not much will stop a fire. Wind gusts of 70-80 mph will cause even a metal roofed brick house to burn and no fire fighter with a hose can stop it. You have seen some complaining that the fire planes did not fly quick enough. The reason was the Santa Annas blowing kept the planes grounded. T.Spoon, DBF | ||
| dex armstrong |
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COMSUBBBS Posts: 3202 Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: California fires Anyone with knowledge on this, please jump in and correct any misconceptions or bum dope in this one. A number of years back, there was a lightning triggered devistationg forest fire in the vicinity of Yellowstone National Park, that caused a number of problems including relocating predatory animals to include packs of wolves that took down domesticated cattle and wiped out small animal populations....Grizzly bears relocated beyond the perimeter of their protected range. One night this Professor of Forestry from Washington State came on TV and explained some ofr the "benefits of forest fires" in reducing random forest growth causing reforestation and what is considered part of a natural cycle of grass and timber renewal. (I didn't know this) certain species of conifer, produce seed bearing cones that ONLY RELEASE THEIR SEEDS IN FIRES....Mother Nature and the Creator of the Grand Design have combined to provide natural mechanisms to assist in disaster recovery. Just look at Mount Saint Helens....Who would have thought, when viewing the hellish conditions following that earth shattering explosion, that within a few years, it would be totally reforested, and that the animal population would be regenerated and operating as before. By Spring, if memory serves me right, fresh vegetation should find itself peeping up within the ashes of those California fires and take the first step on the protracted way back. Let's don't waste time playing pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey on politicians, FEMA, convicts, what or what they failed to do when it comes to residents of the fire devistated area, their policies, local pols and convict participation. Let's open the windows and let in the sunshine. I talked to a contemporary who lives in Fallbrook, California with a daughter who lives in Ramona. He said that he has lived in that area for over 70 years and with every fire, he becomes more aware of the goodness of the folks he lives among. Me, I have been a critical loudmouth in the past of Federal lack of response, inadequate response, misdirected response and the attending bureaucratic bungling that were the hallmark of past efforts. You public safety stewards did OK this time and dammit when that happens you deserve our thanks and gratitude. DEX | ||
| JrKrup, Skimmer |
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Master and Commander Posts: 1324 Location: Oxnard, CA | Subject: Yellowstone fires Small tweak here Dex. The wolves were hunted out of Yellowstone many decades before the big fire up there. Only recently (the past 10 or so years) were the wolves re-introduced into their native range on the park. The cattle interests, who wanted to continue to use the national park as their grazing range, were the ones who objected. The federal gov't agreed to re-imburse the cattle ranches for any calves killed by wolves. There were a bunch of claims for calves killed that turned out that some of those claims were for calves killed by bears, but most by the ranchers themselves, trying to get rid of the wolves. The wolves did kill a few, but not nearly as many as claimed. Not even close. Same for the wolf packs released in New Mexico, Arizona and northern Mexico. Less problems witht he wolves than other sources. As to the fires in Yellowstone, because of them, fires near national parks has become a big political thing. In 1999 there was a fire I was on, up near Yosemite, here in California. The resources expended to keep the fire out of the park was well over and above any that would have been expended on a fire away from the park. Since THEN, even that has changed. | ||
| Blue from West Oz |
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Master and Commander Posts: 2357 | Subject: WRT Fires.... ...yes you are correct there Dex in the knowledge that bush fires are a part of the cycle that helps the bush/forrest. We here in Oz have many species of flora that require a good ol bushfire to destroy all of the life around it to then regenerate. Something about the seeds needing the fire to open them up for regermination. In my Unit, we have a guy who set fire to Kings Park ( Ralph Luther and Jim Mitchell visited there ) a while back.......absolutely destroyed this beautiful park, but actually did more good than harm......but we wont tell him that! Blue *_* | ||
| steamboat |
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| Master and Commander Posts: 1814 Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: WRT Fires.... 1).Lodgepole Pine is the common fire-dependant species in the west. Won't reforest w/o fire or artificial transplanting. 2). The vast majority of the new tree growth on Mt. St. helens was man-made tree planting. Certain zones were set aside for this and others zoned for natural regeneration, although most of the mountain is designated as a National Volcanic study area. 3). I heartily agree that fire is a tool in timber management that the Smokey Bear syndrome has effectively eliminated. Here in Virginia foresters use fire to remove slash and prepare the seadbed for planting after clearcutting pine stands, and then spend untold funds preventing wildfires from the scene. During my tenure as the Project Wildlife Biologist at John H. Kerr Reservoir, I burned hundreds of acres every year in understory of pine plantations to eliminate the mid-story canopy of hardwoods and burn off the pine tags thus exposing the soil to sunlight and facilitating germination of herbatous vegatation desired by small game and ground-nesting birds. We live in an "aspesdous" (sp) belt here, and seldom get the crown fires experienced out west. (Although with the drought we are now expierincing the may change). 4). Bottom line is, in fire-prone areas you got your choice to either burn when you want to or Mother Nature will burn it for you. Period. Just my $.02 worth. Steamboat sends | ||
| JrKrup, Skimmer |
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Master and Commander Posts: 1324 Location: Oxnard, CA | Subject: RE: WRT Fires.... John, do you mean ASBESTOS (non-combustible mineral)? Here in Southern California, there isn't the great forests of the pacific northwest. What some call a "forest" fire, for us is a brush fire. The brush will be very dry at this time of year. The variety of brush (bushes) will have a high(er) natural oil content, and is extremely flammable. The "crown" fires you hear about up in Washington, Oregon, Montana, ... don't much happen down here in the desert areas where there isn't many trees. You have to go up in the mountains (above 5000+ feet) to get into pine trees. Good to see you aboard. Jon Edited by JrKrup, Skimmer 2007-10-29 10:10 PM | ||
| dex armstrong |
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COMSUBBBS Posts: 3202 Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: California fires Steamboat, Your post was a mini-education. I learned a lot about forest management that I never knew before. I saw photos of the recovered slopes on Mount Saint Helens and never considered man made reforestation. My hat goes off to you guys who assume stewardship over what I consider our greatest resource and natural treasure...our forests. I'm not into radical environmental issues, but I am a man who appreciates responsible stewardship of our widerness areas, balanced usage that won't destroy our legacy to generations yet unborn....and your post, Steamboat, tells me that your views are consistent with the type of individual who should be given stewardship over these wonderful gifts from the Creator...DEX | ||
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