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Hairball |
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| Subject: Chinese Song The debate over smokeboats will never end. So for those of you who know a hell of a lot more about this than I do, here’s two web-sites about a Chinese Song-Class Boat that allegedly pulled quite the stunt. Yeah, the Dink is back, still on this frozen rock in the North Atlantic. Cheers, Hairball. You might have to cut and paste the addresses. News report from the Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811 Wikipedia’s information on the Song class. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039_submarine#_note-0  | |||
| Bob Melley |
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| Subject: RE: Chinese Song WE'll never get the straight skinny on this story.......The Chinese sub was probably sitting there minding her own business, spying on the US naval base at Guam when she was literally run over by the Kitty Hawk CSG. She had plenty of warning since the CVA and her four escorts were making lots of prop noise, we don't know if there was active sonar ranging on part of DDs.....when the CSG passed she came up for a look see.....when she got it, she pulled the plug.... The Song class Project 039 G is the newest PLAN diesel version of that class....she may be quiet but she can't run submerged and catch up with a US Navy CSG moving along at transit speed (SOA) of 18 knots, more if the carrier was launching/recovering a/c. A smart Chinese CO would not have surfaced so close behind the US ships......a smart US CSG commander would not tell if he knew the PLAN sub was there.....we never advertised if we caught an unknown sub when we were in transit.....BUT we sure tape recorded everything to pass on to the boys at Makalapa Heights in Pearl.......or, Yokosuka when operating with 7th Fleet. Most interesting three hour exercise was when 3 JMSDF cans and 2 US cans were in ASW exercise and "worked over" a supposedly US exercise sub for a pleasant afternoon.......we kept tossing ASW noise making grenades when we passed over contact and asking for an evaluation of our attack. Figured his Gertrude was busted..... After almost four hours of playing "brother & sister" with five DDs, a torpedo was fired at formation, well wide of the tanker we were "guarding," we taped it and it sounded just like a train coming through a station, up doppler and then down doppler. Late that evening we heard from both US exercise subs, they were 100 miles away in the southern corner of the exercise area....they didn't have "exercise" torpedoes and we never were near them.....THis is NS and all the sound tapes were sent to CINCPAC as soon as we got back to Yoko..... honest......happened just like that....never knew what type sub it was or who it belonged to..... Tincanman | |||
| Dave S. |
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Senior Crew Posts: 141 Location: Seattle, WA | |||
| Bob Melley |
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| Subject: RE: Chinese Song Dave: that's a great site.....run by Brits who really focus on PLA/PLAN weapons systems and related info. Tincanman | |||
| Hairball |
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| Subject: RE: Chinese Song Hi Guys, Perhaps that Chinese Song class SSK was lucky in being in the right place at the right time – and perhaps not… Sometimes being an NQP Dink has the advantage of being on the outside, looking in. The debate of SSK’s vs. SSN’s has it’s strong supporters on both sides with strong arguments for both. So here’s my 5 cents worth. I think there's an assumption that Diesel Electric Boats will always be too slow and lack endurance, when submerged, to pose a threat to a fleet, which I believe cruises at 18 knots and certainly fast surface warships working alone or with their peers etc. But the United States Submarine service during Second World War in the Pacific shows otherwise. Not only that, but the technology of SSK’s is changing to the point where Boat design will, perhaps sooner than later, create a boat with a modern day bang for the buck. Air independent systems and new types of batteries shall (not might) provide the range and speed where a Naval fleet will not be found by accident – but hunted down as prey. The modern smokeboat is becoming not just a powerful weapon in littoral water, but a weapon that will perform in deep oceans. I shall presume and say that – again from the outside in – there seems to be a polarization of this argument with both sides seeming to be unwilling to concede valid points to the other - to the detriment of both.. The United States Navy is training officers on Dutch Boats ostensibly for the purpose of learning how to defeat the humble smokeboat. Further, there have been exercises conducted with the Peruvian (?) Navy’s SSK’s vs. the U.S.N’s, SSN’s in which the Peruvians did well, very well indeed. Yep, maybe I ought to get my butt kicked for saying that, but I got it from Undersea Warfare magazine and I’ll admit straight off the bat – I am an NQP, but I believe I have this right. Perhaps it’s time that the idea of developing a Diesel Electric Submarine from American yards be examined - minus the politics and acrimonious debate that serves no-one… and if this happens, it will be the best diesel electric boat in the world – because you guys, American engineers, are good at that. Hope this dink hasn’t ruffled too many feathers, but what the heck, I’m used to that, that’s what Dinks are for! Cheers, Hairball | |||
| Bob Melley |
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| Subject: RE: Chinese Song When the Russians delivered the Project 877 E and 636 newer Kilos to the Chinese, they did so by carrying them piggyback on a special heavy lift ship......The new diesels subs will not have the endurance to run with a USN CSG in a transit with an SOA of 18 knots......either by trailing on the surface or u/w. The Netherlands Diesel boat the US Navy used/rented in the Pacific arrived in US waters the same way.........Food, fuel, crew capabilities etc are a major issue here. The new diesel boats have smaller crews, AIP boats are meant to hang out and wait until a target gets close enough to be attacked. DE boats are meant to operate closer to shore than nukes........They safety depends on being quiet and using min speed as they search for prey.........That's the rationale for the Kitty Hawk Song Project 039G incident.......Since Guam is a US Naval base with SSNs assigned....I'm sure the PLAN is trying to scope out the best places to hide and approach close enough to get real G-2. They're practicing for WW III as we sit around and BS. A silent running DE boat can still get pinged by a DDs sonar. You can bet that after the last incident, the boys up top are being much more careful..........You'll note that after the Kitty Hawk Hong Kong incident, she ran up throuth the Formosa (Taiwan Strait) with her escorts spread out around her...... No place for a sub to hide, too shallow.....Our SSNs went around....east side of Taiwan. Been there and done that........called Desoto Patrols in the 1960s. The new Russian AMUR diesel subs are called "Patrol Subs" they have an AIP option, the Russkies are offering them for sale as we speak........they can fire cruise missiles like the KLUB, torpedoes and one variant has a VLS system with five sets of side by side tubes for anti surface ship and land attack......Wonder why we have SSGNs that can fire 154 Tomahawk missiles in a few minutes......Guess the Russkies did too.......They have big twin hull Oscar class boomers that have 12 or 16 BIG cruise missiles between their two hulls......The Kursk was an Oscar boat.......one of her torpedoes cooked off and blew in tube which started a chain reaction series of explosions in the other stored torpedoes....sank her killed 118 sailors.....Russian torpedoes have/had a very deadly fuel mixture. Tincanman  | |||
| Bob Melley |
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| Subject: RE: Chinese Song When the Russians delivered the Project 877 E and 636 newer Kilos to the Chinese, they did so by carrying them piggyback on a special heavy lift ship......The new diesels subs will not have the endurance to run with a USN CSG in a transit with an SOA of 18 knots......either by trailing on the surface or u/w. The Netherlands Diesel boat the US Navy used/rented in the Pacific arrived in US waters the same way.........Food, fuel, crew capabilities etc are a major issue here. The new diesel boats have smaller crews, AIP boats are meant to hang out and wait until a target gets close enough to be attacked. DE boats are meant to operate closer to shore than nukes........Their safety depends on being quiet and using min speed as they search for prey.........That's the rationale for the Kitty Hawk Song Project 039G incident.......Since Guam is a US Naval base with SSNs assigned....I'm sure the PLAN is trying to scope out the best places to hide and approach close enough to get real G-2. They're practicing for WW III as we sit around and BS. A silent running DE boat can still get pinged by a DDs sonar. You can bet that after the last incident, the boys up top are being much more careful..........You'll note that after the Kitty Hawk Hong Kong incident, she ran up throuth the Formosa (Taiwan Strait) with her escorts spread out around her...... No place for a sub to hide, too shallow.....Our SSNs went around....east side of Taiwan. Been there and done that........called Desoto Patrols in the 1960s. The new Russian AMUR diesel subs are called "Patrol Subs" they have an AIP option, the Russkies are offering them for sale as we speak........they can fire cruise missiles like the KLUB, torpedoes and one variant has a VLS system with five sets of side by side tubes for anti surface ship and land attack......Wonder why we have SSGNs that can fire 154 Tomahawk missiles in a few minutes......Guess the Russkies did too.......They have big twin hull Oscar class boomers that have 12 or 16 BIG cruise missiles between their two hulls......The Kursk was an Oscar boat.......one of her torpedoes cooked off and blew in tube which started a chain reaction series of explosions in the other stored torpedoes....sank her killed 118 sailors.....Russian torpedoes have/had a very deadly fuel mixture. Tincanman | |||
| Hairball |
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| Subject: RE: Chinese Song "Russian torpedoes have/had a very deadly fuel mixture." The German ME-163 (WW2) also used hi-test Peroxide in its fuel system and they had some gruesome accidents with peroxide leaks and spills... But they did developed fuel system design, handling/storage etc to make them, a hell of a lot safer. Would suggest the Russians et-al have done this with the SKVAL. What are the specs for this torpedo? Have to wonder what the food is like on modern Russian Boats, not bread and vodka! Certainly no stickey buns for midrats! Cheers and beers, Hairy. | |||
| Bob Melley |
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| Subject: RE: Chinese Song Hi Hairy: Just found your post on Torpedoes.....The Shkval is supposedly a very high speed torpedo.......in theory it should run inside it's own air bubble giving it the high speed. It can't manuever once fired....problem is trying to get it to turn INSIDE the air bubble. Boys are still workng on this.....Designed at Bauman Technical Institute in Moscow......In theory, the Russkies have sold it to Iran and maybe the PLAN Chinese Navy.....Joke was the sailors in Russian navy wanted to sell the SHKVAL to Iran so the Iranian navy could "test" it........if it blew up, better dead Iranians than Russians.......US is working on same technology.....also small high speed under water darts to blow up seabed naval mines etc....... have a very happy and healthy New Year.....  Tincanman | |||
| DaveyJ576 |
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| Bob Melley |
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| Subject: RE: Chinese Song Davey: You're right......another reason is to keep US sub builders in business..... Electric Boat could turn out 21st AIP versions of the Barbel......equipped with a toned down CSRM, passive flank sonar arrays and maybe a towed array.......with a little luck they could have a small version of the VLS system mounted behind the sail.....for Tomahawks, Harpoons and their own sub launched SAMs using the newest version of the AIM-9 to combat enemy ASW aircraft. If Taiwan finally goes ahead with their sub order, that would give us a good opportunity. A handful of 21st century D/E boats on each coast and in the Gulf of Mexico would give us additional security for a decent price per boat..... Tincanman | |||
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