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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: New Book: All Hands Down
I got an email fromAmazon.com today promoting the recent book
"All Hands Down: The Story Behind History's Deadliest Submarine Disaster."
I see it's also on the Amazon.com promo on this site's homepage.
Has anyone here read it? I saw it in Borders last week, read the cover blurbs about it "proving" that the Ruskies, with help from the North Koreans and John Walker's boys, torpedoed the Scorpion in retaliation for the loss of the K-129, and had to force myself not to throw it across the store.
Do they actually offer proof, or is it more of the same speculation and interviews with "Anonymous/Not Identified for Security Reasons" Russian Naval Officers, with no hard evidence or new photos that show actual hull damage consistent with a torpedo explosion outside the hull?
Reviews on Amazon and in the papers say it has great stories about the individual crewmembers and the things that were going on between Russian & Allied naval vessels during the Cold War, but does it live up to it's title, or is it more Conspiracy Theory BS?
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
Who can say for sure? We'll be turned to dust before either government will release the actual happening if they even know. All anyone can do is speculate and some have a way to make money at it. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1431
| Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
I don't buy the theory about a Russian attack on Scorpion. The photos of the wreck showed the tail section pushed into the hull which is technically called intersusseception and the forward hatch was missing. All the evidence points to an internal explosion originating in the Forward torpedo room which blew off the hatch and flooded the forward compartments. When she hit the sea floor the aft section collapsed into the forward part of the sub. The photographs showed no evidence of a hull breech that would be present if hit by a torpedo. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
I think the same, Ric. But then again, the sea does some strange things. Only those there know for sure. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 214
Location: Ladson SC | Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
Some of the reports that I read and pictures that I saw support the theory that it was an internal explosion in the torpedo room. Cant say more than that. |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
RCK - 2008-04-25 4:46 PM
I don't buy the theory about a Russian attack on Scorpion. The photos of the wreck showed the tail section pushed into the hull which is technically called intersusseception and the forward hatch was missing. All the evidence points to an internal explosion originating in the Forward torpedo room which blew off the hatch and flooded the forward compartments. When she hit the sea floor the aft section collapsed into the forward part of the sub. The photographs showed no evidence of a hull breech that would be present if hit by a torpedo.
I agree that the photos that have been made public and/or reviewed by people I trust, do not support an external explosion, i.e., torpedo attack. That's what makes the "Russian Attack/U.S. Coverup" conspiracy theorists so annoying. The theory does not fit the available data.
The other popular theory that seems to fit the available evidence, is a GDU failure leading to flooding, etc., and when she passed crush depth, the after sections telescoped into the engineroom as she broke up.
Either way, a hell of a way to die. Unless or until we can know more, let's let them rest in peace.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1796
Location: Albany, GA. | Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
I think the book is as full of truth, as All Hands on Deck by Adm Daniel Gallery. Captain Fatso was known for his ability to tell a sea story. I think that is what this is. If there were actual proof of this, I really can't see any politician letting it go unanswered. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1262
Location: Va.Beach,Va. | Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
Read a few reviews at Amazon.com.Seems a lot of folks think this guy,Jerome Preisler,is
cut from the same cloth as Ed Offley and therefore ,as evidenced by his track record,rates
little or no credibility.Allegedly,both gentlemen have been known to "falsify"information
and report it as fact.
Edited by MAD DOG 2008-04-28 10:43 AM
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Senior Crew
Posts: 159
Location: San Francisco Bay Area | Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
I went through Mk 37 school in San Diego in the mid `70s. The TM1 that taught that class showed us exactly how a Hot Run 37, in the Torpedo Room could be initiated. Then he went on to describe how a battery could hydride and cook-off the warhead, even with ACR keeping the warhead from arming. I've been a true believer in that theory ever since. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 121
Location: Western Washington State | Subject: 589 Investigation report
Source: United States Naval Institute. Proceedings
Date: 06/01/1999
Subject(s): Submarines; Shipwrecks; Armed forces; Accident investigations
Citation Information: ISSN: 0041-798X;
Author(s): C A K McDonald
I have a copy of above report ... sorry I will not post it
Edited by donmac 2008-04-29 10:56 PM
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: 589 Investigation report
Speculate as many are prone to do, especially when $$ are involved, the blunt fact of life is that nobody will ever know for sure what happened to SCORPION. Wouldn't submariners prefer to let them rest in peace? They are dead and gone and ten tons of conspiracy theories won't ever bring them back. |
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Mess cooking
Posts: 40
| Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
Since ya can't keep the buggers from digging up and rehashing this story , would be nice if they had to donate 50% of income from book to survivors/appropriate charity . But then again I won't buy whale s**t like this anyhoo . |
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Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: 589 Investigation report
That "C A K McDonald " is Angus McDonald who is a member of Seattle Base and he gave us a talk about Scorpion a few years ago. He sat on the Navy review board that evaluated what happened to Scorpion. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: Want a good book to read?
Read Whale's Tales by Bruce J. Schick former CO of Clamagore.
Edited by Ralph Luther 2008-05-01 5:26 PM
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 618
Location: Issaquah WA, USA | Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
Whales Tales is indeed a good read. Another very good book is "Of Wives and Submariners" by Ed Jones of the Submarine Research Center. It is a fictionalized account about USS Razorback and the interplay between a junior officer and his CO, culminating in a tragic event on a Northpac Patrol. Contact Vince Flaharty of USSVI Philly Base for ordering info about Whales Tales (vflaherty@hamiltoncommunications.com) and Ed Jones can be contacted at P.O. Box 6088
US Naval Submarine Base
Bangor, Washington 98315
e-mail: subres@cablespeed.com
Tel.: 360-437-8015
Director: Edward Monroe-Jones
http://www.submarineresearch.com/ Nope, I have no connection to either shipmate. Angus MacDonald (Scorpion Board of Inquiry member) was convinced the MK 37 killed Scorpion but the Board officially concluded that it was cause unknown. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
We had a hot run in tube on 403 boat while gearing up for patrol during Cuban Missle Crisis. They told us that heat would not ignite the HBX, but we sure did scamble to off- load that sucker! Seems like the Mk 37 was really inclined for hot runs. This one was a good 5 years before Scorpion, why didn't the Navy do an Ordalt to prevent this ??
Steamboat sends |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1431
| Subject: RE: New Book: All Hands Down
The way I read about hot runs of the torpedo was that there was a thin membrane in the battery between the acid in a dry form and the fluid phase. The membrane would rupture during the firing setup thus allowing the two to mix and activate the battery. Scorpion had some weird vibration that occured from time to time that was not resolved because she was scheduled for a yard overhaul that was postponed to send her to the Med. The thought was that the vibration,from whatever source that was never found or corrected, caused the membrane in the torpedo to rupture and mixed the Battery acid causing the unit to overheat and somehow that I am not privy to, caused the explosion. The theory was supported by the same event, ruptured membrane , occured at a torpedo shop on the west coast. That particular model was suppose to have been removed from all subs, but Scorpion was known to have them on board during their last deployment. |
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New Book: All Hands Down
