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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2561
Location: Rapid City, SD | Subject: Hope this is not too political...
...if it is, please delete it, Don.
In today's paper, there was a little blurb as follows: At the 100th anniversary of the University of Washington, President John F. Kennedy said to the effect that, "The United States is only 6% of the world's population, and we have no right to impose our views or even system of government on the other 94%."
Cora
Edited by Corabelle 2008-05-04 9:58 PM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
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and such a wise man was your 35th President, President John F. Kennedy.
The USA has done many a good deed around the world, but I wonder how much better off you ( the USA ) would be if you heeded his words?
Then again, the world would probably be in a bigger mess, who knows for sure?
Blue *_* |
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: Hope this is not too political...
Ditto the political sentiment --
JFK used numbers to define his thesis - here's another way to cut that same pie -- that civilization at the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers is generally regarded by anthropologists to be the first that ever existed on the face of the earth. Some even believe the Garden of Eden was most likely located at that spot on our globe.
In any event, that society is older than any of the Dynasties of China.
So what makes us think in 2008 that we have a "better idea?" |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1107
Location: Tucson AZ | Subject: RE: Hope this is not too political...
SOB490 - 2008-05-05 11:42 AM
[ Snip ] In any event, that [Mesopotamian/Persian] society is older than any of the Dynasties of China. So what makes us think in 2008 that we have a "better idea?"
Yes, but that society is a far cry from the fractured radical Islamist Arabic/Iraqi/Irani 'societies' that exists today! And it's way way too late to turn back the clock to erase the artificial divisions introduced when Britain (and her allies) redrew the lines in the greater Middle East after WW I, and in 'Palestine' after WW II.
All that said, I too agree with Kennedy's expressed sentiments.
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: Hope this is not too political...
Yeah, times change as do societies. I can remember my grandfather lamenting "they just don't make kids like they used to" -- or "back in my day ..."
Then a few years later, I started hearing my dad say the same things.
Now I catch myself doing it.
And while I'll never be here to witness it, I'll bet my ass and flathat that my kids will do the same thing.
Back to JFK - his overt allusion to US "mental arrogance" is almost pathetic, seeing that he was one of the most arrogant folks who ever drew a breath of air. But his sentiment is still MOT.
A few years back, my wife and I were enjoying 2 months in France and were struck by the fact the vast majority of loud, obnoxious, pushy, arrogant people we encountered were --- yup, from the USofA.
We were in a really quaint tea little shop right behind the Opera one day and a gaggle of US teenaged girls came swarming in. One (who had to be named Two-Ton-Tessie, acne blasted puss and all, tray piled high with rich pastries) was lamenting in a loud whiny voice "They don't even speak English here!!" My normally restrained and dignified wife went over to her and said (NTINS) - "You are in Paris, young lady, what the fxxx did you expect?" I was stunned - not for the sentiment, but that my wife actually did that. Afterwards she said to me "I'm sick and tired of rude damn Americans."
Which is the main reason I travel on my Irish passport - too many ugly Americans abroad.
///SOB
Edited by SOB490 2008-05-05 6:17 PM
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2561
Location: Rapid City, SD | Subject: RE: Hope this is not too political...
It's probably safer to travel on a foreign passport. An American hostage would be a real prize. I thought about that when Elmer and I were in Columbia (a stop on a cruise through the Panama Canal) about 5 years ago.
However, in spite of a few politicians (okay, a lot of politicians), I'm proud to be an American.
Cora |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: Hope this is not too political...
SOB490 - 2008-05-05 10:42 AM
So what makes us think in 2008 that we have a "better idea?"
I'd say the contributions of the United States in just about any field you want to consider justify our existance.........
We have had a better idea from the formation of our form of government. The fact that the present politicians have made a mockery of the dream and genius of our founding fathers does not invalidate their efforts. It merely exposes the shortcomings of the office holders who are not worthy of their offices.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
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SOB490 - 2008-05-06 8:15 AM
.... Afterwards she said to me "I'm sick and tired of rude damn Americans."
Which is the main reason I travel on my Irish passport - too many ugly Americans abroad.
///SOB
Mate, I have heard from quite a few Aussies about the 'rude and loud mouthed Americans'....I usually say to them, "have you ever travelled overseas?" and if the answer is "no" I then tell them "just wait to you see the rude and loud mouthed Aussies as they are everywhere also"
It for some reason, happens to just about any race when they are out of their own country. Besides, your accent would tell me straight away you are NOT Irish! lol
Blue *_* |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: Hope this is not too political...
"The United States is only 6% of the world's population, and we have no right to impose our views or even system of government on the other 94%."
Brilliant advise! That is what I have been preaching for years! Just think.... we would not have suffered 60,000 battlefield deaths in Viet Nam, 4,000 in Iraq and Afganistan, and untold physically and mentally maimed., not to speak of the billions of dollars in wartime costs and economic suffering for the many hardworking Americans. And nobody has beenable to acurately acesses the millions of "enemy" deaths and casualties we have inflicted. And in the end, we did/will not change either the hearts & minds, nor the form of government of these countries. I say this because, in the end, I predict that we will pull out of Iraq and leave a pupit government in place that will eventually transform into a strong dictatorship. This is the only form of government that can keep the vehament sectarian hatred in check. Just look at what happened in Yugoslavia when Tito died, or what happened in Africa when colonial rule disintagrated. When people are left in the wake of the downfall of a tyranical ruler, a power vacuum is filled with anarchy and caous. A modern Democracy cannoy quench the long burning ethnis hatred that were kept in check by fear and intadation. We are seriously deluding ourselves if we think that we can fight this war to a "victory" (unless we are ready to anialate every Middle east Muslem).
So... yeh, I do agree with JFK's advise, very strongly.
Steamboat sends (please overlook my spelling errors, if'n I aint learned to spell by now, no use trying) |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: Hope this is not too political...
steamboat - 2008-05-06 7:28 AM
"The United States is only 6% of the world's population, and we have no right to impose our views or even system of government on the other 94%."
Brilliant advise! That is what I have been preaching for years! Just think.... we would not have suffered 60,000 battlefield deaths in Viet Nam, 4,000 in Iraq and Afganistan, and untold physically and mentally maimed., not to speak of the billions of dollars in wartime costs and economic suffering for the many hardworking Americans. And nobody has beenable to acurately acesses the millions of "enemy" deaths and casualties we have inflicted. And in the end, we did/will not change either the hearts & minds, nor the form of government of these countries. I say this because, in the end, I predict that we will pull out of Iraq and leave a pupit government in place that will eventually transform into a strong dictatorship. This is the only form of government that can keep the vehament sectarian hatred in check. Just look at what happened in Yugoslavia when Tito died, or what happened in Africa when colonial rule disintagrated. When people are left in the wake of the downfall of a tyranical ruler, a power vacuum is filled with anarchy and chaos. A modern Democracy cannoy quench the long burning ethnis hatred that were kept in check by fear and intadation. We are seriously deluding ourselves if we think that we can fight this war to a "victory" (unless we are ready to anialate every Middle east Muslem).
So... yeh, I do agree with JFK's advise, very strongly.
Steamboat sends (please overlook my spelling errors, if'n I aint learned to spell by now, no use trying)
Unfirtunately, JFK did not heed his own advice. HE was the one who began the military build-up in Viet Nam, at the request of the Government of South Viet Nam. The purpose was not to inflict democracy on the Vietnamese people, but to prevent the the North Vietnamese, with the assistance of the Chinese and Russians, from inflicting COMMUNISM on the South. And we almost succeeded.
I must also disagree with your view that the only way to deal with long-standing sectarian hatred is a brutal dictatorship. Marshall Tito and Saddam Hussein did not so much supress the ethnic hatred, as use their powers to help their ethnic group supress the others. Such regimes usually do not survive long after the demise of the dictator.
Like Viet Nam, we did not invade Iraq and topple Saddam for the purpose of installing democracy, but to remove a dictator who had used chemical and biological weapons against both his neighbors and against disfavored ethnic groups in his own country, posed a credible threat to do so again, and was actively engaged in conduct in violation of United Nations mandates (yeah, I know how much weight that carries). We badly mishandled the immediate aftermath of the invasion. But, by removing the existing government, we incurred a moral obligation to the Iraqi people to put another, less repressive, government in its place before we leave.
Ethnic or sectarian hatred is not something that can be overcome in a matter of months, or years, but it CAN be overcome with time, and a certain amount of swift, fair, justice for those who break the peace, no matter which group they belong to. It is working in South Africa, Northern Ireland, and much of the Balkans. It may be starting to work in Iraq. But it will take time, probably years, to be sure.
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 561
| Subject: this is too political...
What happened to 'submarine issues only'?
T.Spoon, DBF |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: RE: this is too political...
TSpoon - 2008-05-07 3:25 AM
What happened to 'submarine issues only'?
T.Spoon, DBF
what then would we talk about T-Spoon?
I wouldn't be able to post anything about my trips to the USA, where to meet up with guys for a drink
No one would be able to post anything about their Dad's having a birthday
Buying a new motorbike
Doing the Sturgis Bike Ride
Computer advice
Earthquakes/Bushfires in California
IMHO it';s when people attack one another that it should stop and that as we know can and does happen in any topic.
my 1 cent worth
Blue *_* |
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: this is too political...
Oh, hell's bells, TS - just dig a bit, you'll find a submariner buried in this mess somewhere! Maybe even three or four.
Now, back to the lard-assed, pimply-faced teenager in Paris .... if my wife's response wasn't something straight out of the After Battery, I'll eat your flathat!  |
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: Hope this is not too political...
Donald L. Johnson - 2008-05-06 10:37 AM [... Ethnic or sectarian hatred is not something that can be overcome in a matter of months, or years ...
Sorta like the US has handled our own integration issue, right?  |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 159
Location: San Francisco Bay Area | Subject: RE: this is too political...
When are you coming back to the Pampanito?
I need an excuse for another day of playing hookey.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
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Larry Smith - 2008-05-07 8:02 AM
When are you coming back to the Pampanito?
I need an excuse for another day of playing hookey.
No immediate plans of going to S.F. sorry to say, I ma however going to Chicago in July for two weeks....Kathy is paying half my fare, so that's how I am able to do so, along with being able to do some shift swaps, with a 'sickie' or two included.
"What a life..."
Blue *_* |
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: this is too political...
>>>I ma however going to Chicago in July for two weeks
Then we'll cross paths yet once again! Darlene and I will be in Chicago from mid-June to 07 July -
Whatever you do, don't miss "Taste of Chicago" the week before the 4th of July - well worth catching a commuter train that runs from Harvard, just a hoot-n-holler from Belvidere over on the east side of Boone County. I'll even pop for a Guinness at Kitty O'Shea's.  |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2561
Location: Rapid City, SD | Subject: RE: this is too political...
Well, it's not over 'till it's over, is it?
Are those of us in the "outback" ever going to see you again?
If not, then my memory of two submariners from two different countries and two different eras will remain intact.
Am I ever going to get beyond this?
Cora |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: Unfortunately SOB....
...I won't be there until the 23rd of July and leaving on the 5th or 6th of August.
Blue *_* |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: Nope, it's not over yet....
....I thought it was when I was leaving, but, you get home, settle down, start doing some thinking and before you know it, you're back on.
Two weeks with Kathy will fly by, whilst everything isn't exactly depending on it, this two weeks is also a time to try to mend bridges with her son.....and hopefully he will see this and make some 'improvements' on his behalf. But at the end of the day ( evidently it is called, 'night' ) the relationship that counts most is between Kathy and I.....and Kathy and her Kids. I shall try a little harder not to be so judgmental on him, so we shall see.
So no, I won't be out visiting anyone this time.
If all goes to plan....I then have 6 weeks leave in March/April next year, and I shall be over once again. The year after, '10, I will have 12 weeks leave in one hit ( "what a life" ) and then when I come over I will be doing a little bit of travelling, I assume.
Blue *_*
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: Nope, it's not over yet....
Yah know ol' Blue there is one way of saving on all those plane fares.....make the last one a one way ticket!! We got plenty of prisoners over here that need harrasing. And with all the global warming stuff, nobody will even notice your effect on weather patterns!
Steamboat sends |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
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....when my youngest turns 16, then I will feel 'free' to do it. ( That's when I left home and joined the R.A.N. so that's good enough for me to run away from home again! lol )
BS mate, that swine Ralph would notice
Blue *_* |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: Nope, it's not over yet....
Blue,
2010 Ah? Well that gives us about 2 years to go dig up some poor bloaks and march 'em around town for about 12 hours and put 'em in another hole in the ground. Gotta get some more wear on those boondockers doncha know!
Steamboat sends |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 561
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Dang,
This board has gone from subs to being a Lonely Hearts club site.LOL
I bet blue has never worked this hard in his life for a little female company.
First trip over Blue was supposed to visit the Pampanito but he took a right turn at San Diego and went to Arizona instead. Perhaps on one of his next trips he will finall stop by the Pampanito and we can introduce him to the night life up in Polk Gulch. After all he is getting all this experience watching other blokes shower and we sure don't want that to go to waste.
What do you think SOB, could Blue handle himself (or someone else) over in the Gulch?
T.Spoon, DBF |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1324
Location: Oxnard, CA | Subject: RE: Nope, it's not over yet....
Blue from West Oz - 2008-05-07 7:07 AM
Two weeks with Kathy will fly by,
So no, I won't be out visiting anyone this time.
Blue *_*
Hey Blue: I'll be there to pick you up at the airport. Just let me know which flight.
Jon |
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Hope this is not too political...
