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Master and Commander
Posts: 1431
| Subject: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Does Disney have the right to search employee's cars in their parking lot for firearms? Your intelligent, non emotional discussion of the issue PLEASE!!!  |
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Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Not unless they can get a search warrant and show probable for the search.
If employee had a license to carry or own it should be their own business.
If the company says no firearms in the workplace that should mean the buildings not the parking lots where the person, when leaving work, will be no longer covered by corporate policy and can legally have gun on them.
...the next 2¢ please.....
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
If the parking lot is owned by Disney I would think they could restrict weapons being on their property. Searching for them? I wouldn't think so unless, as Ric said, probable cause. If the weapon is exposed, such as a rifle lying in a window rack, I would think they could refuse that person to use the parking lot.
IMHO-of course.
Edited by Ralph Luther 2008-07-06 9:13 AM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
I can only speak for Texas and Oklahoma. In Oklahoma, a right to carry state, the big cheese at Conoco-Phillips, Mr. Jim Mulva, decided that he didn't like his employees having guns in the parking lot. He adjusted the company rules and prohibited them. He had a few other large companies in Oklahoma that supported him. That raised a big brouhaha which went through the legislature and the courts and while the original bill was going to declare it legal, it was overturned and as far as I know, Mr. Mulva can feel comfortable walking the streets of Bartlesville. (Some time back, some nutcase shot at whom he thought was the CEO as the big buildings downtown were letting the employees out. Luckily, the poor fellow who was mistakenly shot was ok and they got the assailant some time later. Never heard what happened to him. The media kept a lid on it. He's probably been given a permanent room in Vanita, where the state institution was, or he may have been fed to the hogs. We'll probably never know.
In Texas, another right to carry state, lists where a licensed gun owner can and can't take a weapon. Amusement parks (which includes all sorts of sporting sites like stadiums, etc.) are off limits. Not sure about the parking lots though. They may be on public property and in that case they would be legal.
With respect to Phillips, our company had posted signs that no drugs or guns or alcohol was permitted in the parking lot or in the plant, but the signs were not valid with respect to the concealed carry law which is very explicit about the size, text, and content of the signs. However, my reasoning that I could be fired but not prosecuted for having a gun in my car was shown to me to be wrong, since Texas law will allow prosecution for having a prohibited weapon on the company property if the company had a written or unwritten policy and that I should have known about it.
I'm conflicted on the parking lot rules.....I support private property rights, even if the gummint doesn't. And as much as I don't like being disarmed, I have a choice not to go to places that prohibit me from having a gun in the car.
Edited by Stoops 2008-07-06 10:15 AM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1796
Location: Albany, GA. | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Every employee at our plant signed a copy of the corporate rules. One of which is no firearms on Company property. You aren't breaking any laws if you do have one, just a rule that can get you fired. The parking lots are not open to the public. Now the new law says I can carry one onto the property if I have permission from Corporate. That really hasn't changed, as with their blessing you could carry before the new law. If they chose to search vehicles, they better search them all. Otherwise they better have a compelling reason for only searching a few. I think we can all relate to the gate guards searching every tenth vehicle leaving the base in the old days. Although I think they were looking for stolen property, not so much guns. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 186
Location: Chunky, MS | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
heh. Imagine this. You and your wife go down to the local mall to watch a movie inside the theater there. You buy your tickets, buy your snacks, and get into the ticket-tearing line. When you get to the front, they take your tickets, then ask to search your wife's purse. 
I don't go there anymore. People claim there is a sign at the ticket booth that says you'll be searched for weapons. I guess I've never looked hard enough.
If we want to see a movie, we drive to the next town for it. |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 715
Location: Conway, NH | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
I do believe only the government, not a private citizen or company, has to show probable cause and get a warrant for searches.
A company has the right to prohibit guns, with the exception of law enforcement, on their property.
Why would someone avoid a place who wants to keep their patrons safe?
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
mike652 - 2008-07-06 1:22 PM
I do believe only the government, not a private citizen or company, has to show probable cause and get a warrant for searches.
A company has the right to prohibit guns, with the exception of law enforcement, on their property.
Why would someone avoid a place who wants to keep their patrons safe?
Well, I don't buy the premise that all businesses who would prohibit carrying a licensed weapon really believe that they are keeping their patrons safe. I expect they could fall into a number of categories...they could have been advised by a corporate lawyer that not doing so may invite lawsuits in the future....or they could just be foisting their own gun control ideas on their customers...or they may not be aware of the fact that if Texas had had the CCW many years ago, the slaughter at the cafeteria would have been much less.
However, there may be a few of those folks that sincerely believe that defenseless folk are safer than armed folk even if the police aren't around. Bless their hearts! |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2254
Location: Foothills of the Ozarks | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
My company does business in a number of southern states, Texas being one of them. We have a corporate policy of no weapons on company or client company property. In Texas we cannot terminate an employee who has a legal firearm in his vehicle as long as it is safely stored in the vehicle. If they bring it on the job, which includes into a company vehicle, then they are subject to termination. We are not allowed to search their vehicle nor are our client companies, all major utilities.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1796
Location: Albany, GA. | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Mostly when a theater or sporting event is searching bags and coolers, it is to make sure you don't have food or drink that would interfer with their profit. If you are legally carrying concealed, they would just about have to frisk you. With where my wife carries hers, they would have to get really personal to find it. They could find mine, but not without frisking me. Then they better be frisking every other patron, or the law suits will fly. If they let some pervert frisk me, believe me I will embarass the heck out of them, and have them arrested for indecent contact. There are many ways you can deal with this. Remember, If you haven't done anything wrong, and carrying a gun with a CCW isn't doing something wrong, they have no right to touch you. So do as you will. Me, I won't patronize a store or business that posts a sign banning the legal carry of a weapon. Home Depot and Lowe's both removed their signs they had posted here. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: my 3 cents worth...
....the prison grounds includes the car park.
Any visitor to the prison can and will be searched, including in the car park. If they are carrying drugs then they can/will be handed over to the police.
I would think Disney have the right to do so.
That's all I have to say on that issue.
Blue *_*
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Mess cooking
Posts: 46
| Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Here is what the Orlando Sentinel says....
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/custom/tourism/orl-disneyguns0308jul03,0,4282076.story
The utility (a nuke plant) here in Mississippi requires they remained locked in the car. |
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Mess cooking
Posts: 6
Location: Shelton, WA | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Where as I'm employeed by a local Tribe to act as a Tribal Gaming Agent in a Casino here in Washington; we do prohibit anyone other then On-Duty LEO's from packing inside the building. This includes CCW permit holders regardless if they are employees or guests. Of course we cannot frisk our guests but if we believe them to be packing we will discretely ask them aside and inquire as to if they do indeed have a fire arm on the person. Our surveillance observers and Security Officers have become some what skilled in dedecting concealed weapons. If a guest is carrying we politely inform them that they need to return their weapon to their vehicle if they refuse they are informed of Washington State Law which prohibits non Law Enforcement personnel from carrying a firearm in an establishment where alchol is served. As for employees bringing firearms on property that is a violotion of company policy and will result in immediate termination. Our Security Officers and Gaming Agents do have the authority to check any and all packages and bags brought into the building by employees, a fact which all employees are made aware of during their orientation on their first day of work. They also have the authority to check all large or bulky packages brought onto the Gaming floor by guests a fact which is posted on all doors entering the casino from outside.
Now before jumping to any conclusions understand that I have held a CCW for many years and understand the reasoning behind these requirements and do fully agree with them.
David R LeVering, MM1/SS
SSN 611 & SSN 673 |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Sounds like you are handling the situation in a very reasonable manner. Texas does not prohibit you from carrying a concealed weapon into an establishment that may serve alcohol, but if the sales are over 51% of their business, it must be posted and you CANNOT carry. Texas does not have a limit on carrying concealed and a threshold limit of alcohol consumption....in other words, if you are carrying, you better not drink, PERIOD!
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 715
Location: Conway, NH | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
I cannot understand why some gun owners accept the laws preventing them from carrying in certain public places but do not think that a private business owner can do the same thing. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
mike652 - 2008-07-06 7:45 PM
I cannot understand why some gun owners accept the laws preventing them from carrying in certain public places but do not think that a private business owner can do the same thing.
Yeah, I know Mike...and therein lies our disagreements....once you begin to understand, then your rehabilitation can begin! |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 715
Location: Conway, NH | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Dave – why don’t you try to explain it to me. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
mike652 - 2008-07-06 7:45 PM
I cannot understand why some gun owners accept the laws preventing them from carrying in certain public places but do not think that a private business owner can do the same thing.
I don't think you really care, but I'll try anyway. I suspect there are some gun owners (did you mean concealed carriers?) that don't "accept" the laws, but I accept the laws. That doesn't mean I like or don't like the laws. The law is the law. I did not imply that private businesses can not set their own rules (though the anti-smoking nazis certainly think they can.) The law is very clear in Texas about what you can do to make your business a gun free zone. It even spells out which establishments cannot permit concealed carry. But for any business that is not restricted by the small number of areas restricted by the law is certainly free to disarm their patrons for whatever reason. But if they do that, they MUST follow the law on correct signage and placement. If they do not follow the law on that, then they must indentify a carrier and either by verbal or written methods must ask him to leave. If the patron refuses, then he is breaking the law, but not until that time.
If a business decides that they want to make their business a gun free zone, that's fine with me. I don't agree with it and I'll likely not patronize them, unless there is some rational reason why they chose to do that or they are the only place to buy what it is I am looking for.
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Senior Crew
Posts: 186
| Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Florida recently made their statutes clear. No company or corporation can restrict anyone from having a hand gun in their vehical in a parking lot. That includes Disney. There are of course requirementsw that must be met by the gun owner.
Fl. Statutes # 790.25 (5)
Joe'the'Most  |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1431
| Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
All the work place and restaurant shootings that I have heard of in the past were against co workers and folks who were unable to defend themselves. The same was true in the school shootings. The people who commit these atrosities alway pick a place where they know that no one will be armed and capable of returning effective fire. I don't prescribe to having untrained citizens with weapons in the work place or school environments, but I do support arming citizens that have had good comprehensive training in armed defense and refresher training. I don't believe that the police are well trained unless they spend the time and money to shoot regularly and have periodic retraining. My father was a Chicago policeman who always said the average cop couldn't hit a man across the street and he is as right about that today as back then. In fact he was shot by a perp who he interrupted in the act of committing a burglery. He was into his 60,s then and didn't maintain his skills. Self defense is taken too lightly by the average person who thinks that the fact he has a gun makes him safe. Not true, you must have continued training in gun craft as long as you carry it. That's my poinion and I'm sticking to it!!!  |
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Old Salt
Posts: 330
| Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Enjoying the dialogue... Saw a recent point made about "gun free zones," and that was that-
Any business that prohibited otherwise lawful carry, MUST assume an additional safety burden for the patrons.
That is, by legally prohibiting the otherwise lawful gun owner/CCW person from SELF-Defense, the business MUST be able to prove that they FURTHER provided for patron DEFENSE -
And that failure to do so would expose them to liabillity (something along the lines, of, "you made me disarm, and look what happened - I'm suing you for not protecting me)...
I thought that was interesting.
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 715
Location: Conway, NH | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Dave – You did an excellent job explaining law, but not a very good job explaining why people do not want to honor an owner’s desire to have a gun free zone.
Curt – It is a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation. The ownership of a business probably could use the defense that they tried to keep guns out. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
mike652 - 2008-07-07 4:22 PM
Dave – You did an excellent job explaining law, but not a very good job explaining why people do not want to honor an owner’s desire to have a gun free zone.
I think you need to go back and reread the thread. It wasn't a matter of folks not wanting to honor an owner's desire to make a gun free zone and you know it.
And I can only speak for myself, and I did a good job explaining to rational folks who can stay focused on an issue, that businesses have a right to define what they will or will not tolerate for their customers with respect to concealed carry. And I grant them that right. I do not have to patronize them, nor does anyone else who disagrees with them. But the owner's desires are only those of the owner....and he can suffer the results of his decision, good or bad....no problem here.
What is your point, Mike?
I obey the law. I expect others to do so also.
I will generally not patronize establishments that will force their customers to become disarmed. It is silly to be kind and stupid to be blunt....
Thanks for your thoughts, Mike. Keep trying...sometimes obfuscation works....most of the time it doesn't.
Edited by Stoops 2008-07-07 6:41 PM
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 557
| Subject: RE: I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
Not without getting Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse's permission. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 121
Location: Western Washington State | Subject: Check your License Dave LeVering
DRL673 - 2008-07-06 2:05 PM
This includes CCW permit holders .........................
.............. understand that I have held a CCW for many years and ..............
David R LeVering, .......
Dave,
You do NOT have a CCW Read what it says on your license.
I hold a Washington State "License to Carry Concealed Pistol"
I get a real run around from Sheriff's office who issued the license.
I asked them if I could carry a revolver in a concealed manner.
They said yes. Then I asked them about other weapons .........
They told me to talk to my legislator, as they wrote and titled the law.
I did, and the lady senator did not know the difference between a
pistol and a revolver, never mind an UZI or the difference between
a combat M-16 and a hunting rifle. They are all guns, concealed or not.
UGH
I've had my LCCP for almost 40 years, I don't leave home without it. |
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I think I'll Start an Arguement.....Friendly Argument
