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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: A serious request for naval tradition information.
In the military officer corps, there is something called DINING IN...I know that the Army and Marine Corps hold dining ins. I am not sure about the Air Force and Navy. The Army publishes an instructional manual outlining the regulations surrounding the rituals and traditional requirements. The manual is an official publication of the Command and General Staff School at Fort Leavenworth. Kansas. My question involves the sequential order of the opening toasts...As I recall they begin with, "Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you The United States of America and her Commander-in-Chief" and everyone raises their glasses and takes a drink...This is followed by toasts to the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of the Navy, the Chief of Naval Operations and the Officers and men of the United States Navy, past, present and future....and the final toast is given by the junior ranking individual who rises and says "Gentlemen I give you the Ladies." and since the honor of that toast cannot be exceeded, tradition requires that all glasses are returned to the table and placed there upside down...or if the cost of the glasses can be covered they are thrown into the fire place. I am trying to get the text and sequences of the Naval Dining In toasts. I would actually like to see USSVI compile a booklet of standard procedures established by veteran undersea warriors for HOLLAND CLUB DINNERS that incorporates our statement of purpose, a prayer for our fallen submariners and a sequence of required toasts. I would like to see this tradition observed at every HOLLAND CLUB dinner, in the same fashion as the traditional ritual is observed at the commissioned officers dining-ins. Feel free to tell me to go pack sand but as being taken into the HOLLAND CLUB becomes more meaningful with the passage of time and the amplified honor of being inducted becomes universally recognized throughout the submarine community, the dinner and the ceremony will be more meaningful if standards could be formulated and incorporated that will in time become accepted traditions. The boatservice no longer allows men presenting themselves to have their Dolphins pinned on, to be tossed over their tank tops into a doo-doo gumbo created by blown sanitary tanks, and hauled back aboard to have their twin fish pinned over the breast pocket of a sopping wet dungaree shirt....The formal traditions of a HOLLAND CLUB DINNER can only make the occasion more memorable and meaningful....I think Ben Bastura would have approved. DEX |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Formal? Submarines? For some reason, Dex that doesn't sound right together. Tradition, yes, and I agree with you that the various forces, including submarines, are losing it. The old gives way to the new.
I get to the Holland Club in '13, the same year as Mike. Who knows what tradition will be there then. |
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Crew
Posts: 52
Location: Fallbrook, California | Subject: Navy Mess Night (Dining In) Manual
A link to the Navy Mess Night (Dining In) Manual
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/special/mess_night.htm |
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Try this:
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/special/mess_night.htm
Or this:
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq89-1.htm |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Ralph, You have obviously never hosted a function at the Army-Navy Country Club in Arlington. It is a formal venue where the SecNav, CNO and YES where receptions and retirement functions are held for retiring Naval giants, heroes and legends. Sure, you could show up in Big Mac overalls with a claw hammer loop...cut offs...bring in some honey in clam diggers and a halter top...but the time between your entrance and exit would be measured in seconds. The Northern Virginia Base HOLLAND CLUB DINNER is a most formal affair. I didn't determine that, the entire membership that is comprised entirely of Qualified Submariners made that determination out of respect for our honored dead that USSVI was conceived to always remember and to honor and respect the ladies in attendance. It's not a pierhead gin mill hog wallow like we snorkeled around in years ago...you can't step outside and take a leak in an adjacent alley....or get a five dollar stand-up out back near the dumpster. The Army-Navy Club is where officers go after memorial services in Arlington National Cemetary to toss down a few in remembrance of departed shipmates. It is a place where significent medals and decorations are awarded...Where naval combat associations hold their meetings and where weddings, anniversaries and birthday celebrations are held....It has a history that spans decades and includes damn near all of the nationally recognized names in Naval Leadership among it's historical membership. Holding a function at the Army Navy Country Club is a helluva long way from splitting a bucket of chicken wings under the grease rack at your local Sunoco station. DEX |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: Special thanks to Tom Curtis and SOB490
Special Thanks to Tom Curtis and SOB490, for supplying actually far more than I expected. WOW...That had everything. Reminds me of the kid in third grade who was given a book on frogs that the teacher required him to read and give a book report on...He began. "I had to read a book on frogs....It told me a helluva lot more about frogs than I ever wanted to know." Seriously, what a great resource. THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU. Maybe someday the leadership of the HOLLAND CLUB section of USSVI will modify that manual as appropriate to be used as a standard guidline for formal HOLLAND CLUB INDUCTION DINNERS...That would be GREAT. DEX |
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Old Salt
Posts: 431
| Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Ralph Luther - 2008-10-12 5:27 PM
Formal? Submarines? For some reason, Dex that doesn't sound right together. Tradition, yes, and I agree with you that the various forces, including submarines, are losing it. The old gives way to the new.
I get to the Holland Club in '13, the same year as Mike. Who knows what tradition will be there then.
You and I can start a tradition of being the happiest SOB's on the planet |
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Old Salt
Posts: 431
| Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
We have started a tradition at Carp reunions
We have stand for Recognition
Carp Plankowners
WW2 vets with Carp War patrol vets standing first
any other War vets
Carp Blue Nose crew members
and lst but not least Carp decommissioning crew. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Mike, I agree...getting in will do that for me. I just thought that since we always have a senior submarine qualified admiral as our featured speaker and that we have our dinner in a very historical place, it would be nice to observe several of the traditional naval customs. But, I guess everyone is right. I just received an e-mail from a retired submarine officer, telling me that mess traditions were never intended to be practiced by enlisted elements and that most enlisted personnel would not appreciate the sophistication of formal dining. I used to attend the annual dinner of the Company of Military Historians with Solveig and traditional mess practices in an abbreviated fashion were observed at the dinner....The senior official greeting and welcome...the sequence of toasts and the prayer for the lost military personnel. To me, it made the evening more meaningful and you damn well knew you weren't at a PTA spaghetti dinner or a Burger King luau. The toasts always made me feel connected with my days of service. Hey, not everything appeals to everybody. I thought the honor of entering the HOLLAND CLUB called for the establishment of some form of light ceremonial tradition....not the full nine yards of the complete package mess night rules, the majority of which get a little over the top for me...but there seemed to me, honor in toasting the United States Navy, the President, SecDef, SecNav and the CNO,naval hierarchial leadership and it is never wrong to salute the ladies present....And a prayer to recognize the service and sacrifice of the lads lost in combat would never be unappreciated or out-of-place and meet the requirements called for in the USSVI charter and stated purpose and not require the protracted tolling of the lost boats. Our base has a formal tolling of the boats twice a year and we call out the names of the boats lost in the month of the monthly meeting and select one boat lost in that month to read its' brief history and the circumstances of its' loss....Thus having our chaplain read a prayer asking for the care of the lost men until the "sea shall give up their souls" seemed to me to be appropriate. Hey, I discussed this with no one...it was just my screwball idea and as the officer who e-mailed me seemed to imply, it concerns traditions way beyond the pay grade of raghat bluejackets....Ralph's right, we should stick with tossing down brewed products, chomping Beer Nuts, Slim Jims and hard boiled eggs in locations where it is appropriate to carve the name and hull numbers of your boat in the table tops and pee down the mens head floor drain. I kinda liked establishing some special HOLLAND CLUB traditions...that would make the passage into the Vallhalla of Boatsailors a little more traditional....I withdraw the suggestion...it was obviously a bad idea since it did not garner the expected support. DEX |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2561
Location: Rapid City, SD | Subject: "Most enlisted personnel would not appreciate the...
sophistication of formal dining."
More than a little elitist, snobbish and insulting.
Where's my beer?
Cora |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Ralph, You have obviously never hosted a function at the Army-Navy Country Club in Arlington.
You are 100% correct, Dex. In fact the only affair I've had the priveledge of attending anywhere within 50 miles of DC and Northern Virginia has been with you, Blue, Bruce, JimM and others. Now that was a great time.
 Mike? Can we make it a date? 
We have started a tradition at Sennet Reunions also where we remember ALL of our Crew Members and ALL Submarine Veterans on Eternal Patrol rather than tolling of the boats. We use this poem which can be found at the USSVI Eternal Patrol section.
I have one consolation that lives with me today.
That God is near to them, in his own special way.
So God in all Your mercy, keep near Thyself the soul,
Of every Submariner, still on his final patrol.
Lord, this departed shipmate with Dolphins on his chest
is part of an outfit known as the best.
Make him welcome and take him by the hand.
You'll find without a doubt he was the best in all the land.
So, heavenly Father add his name to the roll
of our departed shipmates still on patrol.
Let them know that we who survive
will always keep their memories alive.
Edited by Ralph Luther 2008-10-13 7:01 AM
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Senior Crew
Posts: 113
Location: Dogpatch (Conway), Arkansas | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Fer God's sake Dex,
It wasn't a bad idea because it didn't get the support you expected. I think it is a damn good idea. I am a life member of USSVI and will be eligible for Holland Club next year. So far, I haven't seen much benefit from the fee's I have paid except to say I am a member.
I think most raghats might be a bit more sophisticated than they let on. Getting s**t-faced after a run is a tradition most of us old guys can't handle anymore, nor do I want to. I'm not into ceremonial swords or rootin for the academy during the Army/Navy game, BUT,
with the recent change in the USSVI creed, etc., it seems to me it may be a good time to make the organization a little more user friendly. I looked over the website this morning and could not find anything regarding Holland Club. That leaves me wondering if I will be inducted or not. I'm damn sure not going to ask. You drag a hell of a lot more water than my skinny ass, so get back on your damn horse and charge!
Sammy |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Folks. I have dropped the whole idea and I'm moving on. All e-mails were negative. It was a bad idea. DEX |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 539
Location: Palm Bay, Florida | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Sargosailor - 2008-10-13 10:02 AM
I looked over the website this morning and could not find anything regarding Holland Club.
Use the USSVI Members button, and then the Holland Club button |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 618
Location: Issaquah WA, USA | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Shipmates: With respect to personal 'benefits', it misses the point of why USSVI exists at all. All submarine veterans have a keen sense of understanding that, but for an accident of time and place, any of us could be listed with the nearly 4,000 submariners who have perished in times of war and peace. It is the primary mission of USSVI that we perpetuate their memory through memorials and "tolling the boats" memorial services. USSVI exists to honor and give voice to the nearly 4,000 men who went to sea and perished in service to the people of the United States of America. Our secondary mission is Cameraderie. "In addition to perpetuating the memory of departed shipmates, we shall provide a way for all Submariners to gather for the mutual benefit and enjoyment. Our common heritage as Submariners shall be Strengthened by camaraderie." Holland Club Membership Application Procedures | Requirements for membership: - Member in good standing USSVI
- Qualified in Submarines Fifty (50) or more years ago (1955 elig in 2005)
- Regular Member for five consecutive years --- or --- a Life Member USSVI
| When to submit: - may be submitted in the Year of your Eligibility
- Qualification year not Qualification date
| Submitting Nominations: - Base Commanders are requested to review your Base personnel at least once annually, then inform any base member who is eligible if he wishes to be made a Holland Club member
- MALs apply directly to NJVC via the USSVI National Office requesting your name be submitted for induction into the Holland Club.
- Base Commanders submit member or members name(s) to the National Office ussvi@telebyte.net for eligibility verification.
| General Membership: - If you are eligible or approaching eligibility please notify your Base Commander.
- MALs please alert the NJVC via the USSVI Office.
- If you need assistance contact:
the NATIONAL OFFICE
at (360) 337-2978
or office@ussvi.org
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 892
Location: Palo Pinto County, Texas | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Dex, you are so quick to draw a conclusion to a query that has been posted for less than twenty four hours. Many of the players in this sandbox probably haven't even seen this string as yet.
June & I attended a formal 'dining-in' at a joint command at Patrick Air Force Base many moons ago. I was the junior officer in attendance. It was a learning experience to be sure. We did receive what seemed at the time to be an excessive amount of personalized attention, starting with the senior officer present that at the time was the Commanding General of the Air Force Eastern Test Range. That's where we test fired our Polaris missiles down range. My CO of the Naval Ordnance Test Unit was Captain Walt Chimiak. He was a very senior Navy Captain but junior in lineal numbers from the slew of left over bird Colonels in the USAF that were present. The Commanding General 'pulled' June & I from the receiving line to stand with him for introductions as all the brass & their ladies came through. It wasn't the most comfortable situation for this old raghat recently selected for warrant. Damn, I needed a smoke big time! That 'dining-in' will do me for a lifetime. Thank you very much.
As for the Holland Club, for me it's a mark of longevity. Should I still be around it'll be in the year that I turn 78. Of course I had a decade of skimmer duty prior to submarine duty.
Please don't be so eager to cancel an idea that's still in its infancy.
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Roy, I spent the better part of an hour reading and deleting very negative e-mails that called for doing everything but setting fire to my hacienda. In combing through all the comments it became clear that the idea had no wings....and I've reached a point in life where I have grown tired of becoming a lightning rod everytime I attempt to make a positive proposal. I didn't propose anything that would detract in any way from honoring lost boatsailors in keeping with the USSVI charter statement...my intent was to amplify the dignity and solemnity of the event. That's why I faqiled to understand Pat's post and admonition. Roy, I have skivvies made out of main battery turret armor to ward off the great white butt bites you can get from the visitors to this board....and I've learned to let go of a bad idea before the posters here get a chance to drum up a feeding frenzy. DEX |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1324
Location: Oxnard, CA | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
The sad part of this, Dex, is that one of the biggest nay-sayers will suggest the exact same thing, then take the credit for thinking of it.
Happens all the time. |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 113
Location: Dogpatch (Conway), Arkansas | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Dex,
Pat seldom posts anything that does not include an admonition. Comes as a package.
Sammy |
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Senior Crew
Posts: 113
Location: Dogpatch (Conway), Arkansas | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Thanks for the help Ken. I thought "members" meant individuals.
Sammy  |
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
A couple of years back while GUMBA was still BC of Groton Base and despite my San Freakcisco address, I was inducted into the Holland Club by him in a ceremony held aboard Sub Base Groton. Now that GUMBA has moved on, I presume his successor as BC still conducts the ceremony pretty much as before - at least I would certainly hope so!
As I posted at the time, Groton Base made the event a memorable one. What actually impressed me more than all of the sleeves bearing 2" gold stripes and a batch of 1/2-inchers to boot that abounded was the fact it was a Saturday and from the front gate on, the Sub Base rolled out the red carpet - including enlisted students standing out in the drizzling rain directing our cars in the Dealey Center parking lot. Then carrying umbrellas over each party as they went to the center.
Inside, what seemed to be a substantial number of enlisted students - if not the remainder of the entire class - were there to witness the ceremony. I belabor this point because they volunteered to be there on what could have been their day to relax a bit.
I couldn't help but reflect upon what my thoughts might have been way back in 1956 had I been one of those students witnessing so many 1, 2, and 3 star admirals and a gaggle of full four-stripe captains paying tribute to a bunch of weathered, hobbled old farts up on the stage. But I do know this because I spoke with some of those kids afterwards, intending to thank them for attending. To a man, I was told that they had heard about this ceremony some weeks before and were anxious to come and see it. They wanted to be there!
If that ceremony doesn't plant a seed that will "Perpetuate the memory ..." then I don't know what would.
My point? Well, the program from start to finish was absolutely superb and I sure appreciated everything that everyone at USSVI Groton Base and Sub Base Groton did to make the program a roaring success.
Now, on to "dining in" and "dining out" [the difference being that "dining out" includes non-members, i.e. wives, etc. of that particular officer's mess].
My Dining Out experience, not unlike Roy's, was an eye-opener for this ex-enlisted type to be sure. It has nothing to do with officer versus enlisted or who is accustomed to what or even who could be more sophisticated - I daresay in my era where a substantial number of my fellow officers in DBFs were also mustangs, few of us had ever had that particular "dining" experience.
In fact, for those ex-enlisted types who received direct commissions, the name for the school they attended was openly called "Knife and Fork School" aimed solely at teaching us how to participate in wardroom etiquette.
Growing up on the south side of Chicago, my family gatherings for grandparents' birthdays, Thanksgiving or Christmas never included toasting the Commander-in-Chief, much less some king or queen - in fact, not even an ambassador with a red sash across his chest, sagging under a few dozen gaudy medals was to be seen or heard from at any of our tables.
We were all common working people, not elegant millionaires so our "ceremonies" were also quite common - or, if one insists, inelegant.
So, having taken my meals in the After Battery and then some years later, the Forward Battery, I have to admit that all of the pomp and circumstance of my first "Dining Out" at a reception for COMSUBPAC (RADM Fluckey) was not only strange to me - it was downright bizzare. I was as uncomfortable as a whore in church.
I was used to sitting at dinner among family and friends, carrying on spirited conversations, not having to obtain permission to leave the table for a call of nature or because I needed to get outside and rip off a fart. Or, more to the point, because I was bored as hell with all the foo-foo and extended pinky finger stuff that was going on.
Right after commissioning, I reported aboard a tincan permanently homeported in WESTPAC and we had a CO who conducted almost every evening meal as a "Dining In" experience simply because he was a self-aggrandizing old bastard. I quickly arranged my watch schedule in Main Control so that I didn't have to be present at the "first sitting" in order to avoid all the gamesmanship that went on.
It went something like this:
(CO, George David Quinn Jr.) "Mr. Ott, how do you rate this evening's main course?"
(LTjg Ott) "Three-point-four, Captain!"
(CO) "Negative! Do NOT concur! Mr. Phillipi?"
(LT Phillipi) "Three-point-nine, Captain!"
(CO) "I still do not concur! XO, your esteemed opinion, please?"
(XO, LCDR Holbrook) "Barely edible, Captain, barely edible. Two-point-four at the most."
(CO) "Well, Mr. Orr (our resident porkchop and Mess Caterer) what say you?"
(LTjg Orr) "Four-point-oh, Captain. Definitely, four-point-oh!"
I sat there wondering if I had somehow lost my mind. Grown men, professional naval officers, no less, manning a ship that actually had weapons aboard that could go BOOM!! acting out a script that wasn't worthy of the junior class play.
Then, horrors upon horrors, I heard MY name being called:
(CO) "Well, then, Mr. Parker, it seems that it is up to you to solve this dilemma we have here. What say you?"
(ENS Parker) "Captain, may I please be excused? I need to relieve the watch."
Later I was "counselled" by the XO as to the "proper" etiquette to be demonstrated at the Captain's table. Yeah, right.
If that reaction makes me crude, rude, and unsophisticated, then I gladly plead GUILTY AS CHARGED!
Again - my point? Well, every USSVI base has its obvious limitations because of size, financial health, leadership, whatever. Since the current Holland Club program devloves down to the individual primary bases for presentation, I would expect that the ceremony will be pretty much what that individual base can muster up.
I've attended many functions at the Officers Club at Fort Meyers as well as Army-Navy Country Club during my duty days on OPNAV staff and NavShips - both places are tall cotton - fancier than suits my personal taste in any event.
But what the hell, my wife liked them --- so if you enjoy those experiences, have at them! I'll take the Rotunda or The Place Where Louie Dwells over in SE.
Edited by SOB490 2008-10-13 2:13 PM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2254
Location: Foothills of the Ozarks | Subject: I've got to wade into this brouhaha
When I read this post this morning I immediately thought, good idea, needs some seasoning. No insult meant for the cook but I think with a little tweeking there is the groundwork for something we can all be proud of. Being curious, I first went to the USSVI website to see if I could find out if an induction ceremony already existed; no sense re-inventing the wheel if it isn't necessary. I didn't find what I was looking for so I made a few inquiries and then went off with my son to explore wineries and possible places for this old quack to retire to. Now I come back and see that the cook has declared the hot dog and beans a culinary disaster. WTF is that all about?
I've attended a few Holland Club induction ceremonies and the best, I've seen, was put on by Art Randall, former Central Region Director. Think what you may about Art but he did one helluva job in making Holland Club meaningful for the inductees, relevant for those of us in waiting and downright special for the wives and guests that attended. I'm sure, from reading SOB's post that Gumba did the same. So, why can't we take the best of what these two and probably others have done and make an induction ceremony that can be used by any base, regardless of size that ties the history and the future together in a way that makes old pharts cry, young men yearn for their day and wives and sweethearts swoon with admiration for their dolphin wearing men.
Dex, you may walk away from this but I've already volunteered to take the idea and turn it into something. I'll bet others are willing to do the same.
In a little over six years I get to participate (2015) and I want it to be as special as the day I got my Dolphins awarded to me in 1965.
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: SOB...Here's my take
For years I was a member of the Chesapeake Chapter oif the Company of Military Historians and attended the Annual Banquet at Fort McNair. It was not conducted with all that meaningless horses**t like Mr, Vice and the over-the-top stuff you outlined...but it did require that you honor the occaision by not turning up in painters pants and a bowling shirt. I found the sequence of toasts to be a real warm tradition, military men saluting their chain-of-command...sort of like confirming your belief in church by subscribing to the Apostles Creed. That's just me. My first exposure to military traditioin of this nature was after my Mother died in 1950. During the summer when I was enjoying my summer vacation, I lived in the Bragg BOQ with my Dad or out in the field if his regiment was out doing field problems. He commanded a parachute infantry regiment in the 82nd. One night he popped me in my military school uniform...had me buff my shoes and Blitz my brass...and he showered and threw on his dress canvas (blues and highly shined jump boots) and his driver took us to the ceremonial dining room in the back of the officers club on post. I was told that the regimental staff had invited me to attend THE REGIMENTAL ORGANIZATION DAY DINNER...I was nine or ten and extremely impressionable...When I entered, the walls were covered with flags The Division and Regimental Flags were displayed along with our Stars and Stripes behind my Father's chair at the head of the table...The main table was reserved for Battalion Comanders and their Execs and any trooper who had been awarded the Medal of Honor or Distinguished Service Cross in Europe...I sat with the company commanders and platoon leaders...behind the two tables reserved for the junior officers, were rows of platoon guidons, many of which still bore amaturishly embroidered names of of towns where they saw action like Palermo, Anzio, St. Mer Elglise, Carrington, Niemegen....and pinned to the walls were captured Nazi flags, banners and war trophies...There were also Dutch and Belgian road signs and a giant size pair of women's bloomers found in the basement of a bombed out farm house where a number of jumpers got pinned down for a while. I remember that it began with a toast to the men lost...They stood, raised their glasses and sung an old RAF song from WWI..."Oh stand by your glasses steady, This World is a World of lies, Here's a toast to the dead already...Three cheers for the next man who dies." Then they sung the 82nd Marching Song..."We're All American and proud to be, We're the defenders of Li-ber-ty, Some ride the gliders to the enemy others are strong paratroopers, We're all American and fight we will, till all the guns of the foe are still....Put on your boots, your parachutes...get all those gliders to attack today....we're coming out, were coming down the 82nd way" This was followed by BLOOD ON THE RISERS..."Oh there was blood upon the risers and brains upon his chute, his intestines were a-dangling from his paratrooper suit...They picked him up, he was a mess and poured him from his boots and he ain't gonna Jump no more...Gory, Gory, Whatta helluva way to die...Gory Gory whatta a helluva way to die...Gory, Gory whatta helluva way to die and he ain't gonna jump no more." Then they had the obligatory toast sequence and after they were completed men stood and shouted out things like "Here's to Bill Crowder who got it holding that goddam farm house wall at St. Mer Eglise...""Here's to Bob Anderson got it in Holland." Here's to those gallant sonuvabitches who crossed the river at Neimegen in those flimsy goddan limey canvas boats and took the other side" "Gentlemen, here's to Abe Rathman, the Jumpin' Jew one of the bravest sonuvabitches God ever made." And it went on like that until some junior officer got up and read the names of the officers who activated the regiment in 1942 and the wartime history of its' actions, unit awards and decorations...battle honors and streamers....and the names of her heroes and their deeds." I never forgot that night it was a cross between a religious ceremony and a class reunion of the Hole-in-the Wall Gang....I left being proud of living in a country that produced such men and I never forgot that night...never will. DEX |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 618
Location: Issaquah WA, USA | Subject: Holland Club Recognition
As SOB said, "Again - my point? Well, every USSVI base has its obvious limitations because of size, financial health, leadership, whatever. Since the current Holland Club program devloves down to the individual primary bases for presentation, I would expect that the ceremony will be pretty much what that individual base can muster up." While this is true and very practical advise, Doc also makes a good point that we can (and should) have some HC Induction guidelines to go by for interested USSVI Base officers to refer to. Nothing too elegant (read expensive) or too formal (because most of us wore dungarees and not khaki, and those of us who did are more into informality now than then), but sincere and meaningful for all participants, certainly. Doc volunteered and I accepted his offer for him to be 'point' on gathering in the info on how the bases currently conduct these ceremonies, and we'll get a overview and guide put together for our bases to refer to. Thanks Doc, for volunteering to do this! |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2673
Location: New Jersey | Subject: RE: A serious request for naval tradition information.
Bill aka SOB, thanks for that very ugly rendition of our top ring knocker minds acting like morons. I was gonna say like kindergarten kids, I actually wrote it, and it just didn't express my disdain enough. It's actually embarrassing. As for me I'll stick with the mess hall in the after battery.
We in the Mid-Atlantic base have a very nice, low key affair that honors the vet, has his entire family present for a hot lunch, is awarded the appropriate certificates and applauded for his living long enough to achieve this wonderful honor.
I expect, if still on this side of the grass, to be so honored in 2011.
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A serious request for naval tradition information.
