The other day our National USSVI Commander (Pat Householder) and I were talking about the "lost boats tolling"... Long and short of it is that I am looking at producing a CD/DVD of all the lost boats (both 52 and 65, depending on which format the individual base or? wishes to follow)... These discs will have boat pictures, patches, battle flags, crew photo (whatever) of each boat with my reading of the boats including the double bell ring after each.  It is also planned to have some "quiet background music", i.e "Eternal Father" etal behind my reading of the boats. 

Bottom line question; do you diverse and arguementative subvets think that this is something worth putting together?  If so, I will first screen the result(s) through Mr. Householder for his definitive feedback to all of us (no holds barred)... This message is just to get the feeling of "Y'ALL"...

Also, this will most likely be followed by a "like kind" Missing (Submarine) Sailor" table setting, disc with appropriate pictures and reading as mentioned before... You USSVI members, check with your base members 

(we stay busy out here on the Olympic Peninsula)

So far your feedback doesn't lean toward doing this project and I can see your individual points.  I think "individual" is the key word here, you all seem to do things differently. 

A "Tolling of the Boats" has always been just that.  It all started with the 52 lost during WWII as this is an off shoot of our WWII subvets tradition to begin with.  They, the WWII subvets, were actually tolling the submarine and those crew that (may have) lost their lives aboard on that specific date in time.  I might not agree with tolling for a boat where all the crew were rescued but that was how it was set up originally and how it had been done for years, think tradition here, as in "perpetuating the memory" etc. etc.. 

Since this all started many changes have been tried (whether good or bad).  USSVI now counts 65 lost boats.  Some ceremonies add an extra bell for ALL losses (U.S., Russian, Turkish, Swiss?)... Ric would make it 53 boats to include WWI, others may want to include all others who were killed in the line of duty such as young Ashley.  These are all good ideas but how far do we go?  We can't include the pals that were killed in a car accident coming back to the boat drunk, nor the Seaman that caused his own demise by working outboard of the rams where he should not have been. 

I think it's great for the individual boats at their reunions to "do their own thing" such as which of their crew are no longer with them.  That's important on a local and more personal, gut level of the individual boats.

I'm trying (not to successfully) to figure out what might be useful to all of us (collectively) at a convention or in our own living room. 

Thanks for the input guys, I do listen (most often)!  LOL

It is the primary mission of USSVI to

"To perpetuate the memory of our shipmates who gave their lives in the pursuit of duties while serving their country." 

We do this through annual public tolling ceremonies of all the boats (this is important so that the local community is made aware of their sacrifice), plus monthly tollings at our meetings.  USSVI also supports the various submarine memorials around the country.  The cameraderie is important to us all, but it really is the tool that helps us to work together to see that these brave men are never forgotten.  If we subvets do not care enough to do so, who will?

It is fitting that the chapters of SVWWII use their 52 boat Tolling script, because that is what SVWWII is all about.

It is also fitting that all bases of USSVI use the 65 boat USSVI tolling script (found in the USSVI Policy and Procedures Manual which is a derivation of the SVWWII program but enhanced to include all the lost USN boats. ( We always at this junction get into some sort of food fight over what constitutes a 'lost boat.')

If you visit www.ussvi.org and  click the LOST BOATS button, you will see a presentation by month of all 65 USN submarines lost since 1900.  (Check out the buttons on the left side of each lost boat page as well.)

The criteria that USSVI uses is clearly explained in the PPM, and is the one clearly explained by Jim Christley at http://www.oldsubsplace.com/Introduction.htm

Introduction to Lost Boat List.

The criteria for what constituted a loss is generally straight forward.  It included:

1.  Submarines lost at sea by enemy action with or without personnel loss.

2.  Submarines lost by stranding and foundering with or without personnel loss

3.  Submarines lost at sea by collision with personnel loss

4.  Submarines lost for unknown reasons.

5.  Submarines lost due to material or operational causes with or without personnel loss.

6.  Submarines lost due to scuttling.

The period for actions for which a lost submarine could be listed in this (USN) report was the that of the U.S. declared involvement in WW II, 7 December 1941 to 15 August 1945.  The portion of WW II from September 1939 to December 1941 was not included even though we lost several ships including one submarine during this period.  The list only accounts submarines that were lost while under US flag during the stated period. Using the criteria above and expanding the time to cover the entire history of our submarine force, a corrected total for our submarine losses may be obtained.

1.  Total Losses in Wartime

The two declared wars in the 20th century were World Wars I and II. World War I period of US involvement was from August 1917 to November 1918.   The USS F-1 (SS-20) was lost on 17 December 1917, during World War I, by collision at sea (Criteria 3). This boat's loss plus those lost during WW II bring the total of submarines lost by our submarine force in wartime to 53. These are:

USS F-1 (SS-20), USS S-26 (SS-131),USS Shark (SS-174),USS Grunion (SS-216), USS Argonaut (SS-166), USS Amberjack (SS-219), USS Grampus (SS-207), USS Triton (SS-201), USS Pickerel (SS-177), USS R-12 (SS-89), USS Runner (SS-275),,USS Pompano (SS-181), USS Grayling (SS-209), USS Cisco (SS-290), USS Wahoo (SS-238), USS Dorado (SS-248), USS Corvina (SS-226), USS Capelin (SS-289), USS Scorpion (SS-278),  USS Grayback (SS-208), USS Trout (SS-202), USS Gudgeon (SS-211), USS Herring (SS-233), USS S-28 (SS-133), USS Golet (SS-361), USS Growler (SS-215), USS Robalo (SS-273), USS Harder (SS-257), USS Escolar (SS-294), USS Shark (SS-314), USS Seawolf (SS-197), USS Albacore (SS-218), USS Scamp (SS-277), USS Barbel (SS-316), USS Swordfish (SS-193), USS Kete (SS-369), USS Trigger (SS-237), USS Snook (SS-279), USS Lagarto (SS-371), USS Bonefish (SS-223),  USS Bullhead (SS-332), USS Sealion (SS-195), USS Perch (SS-176), USS Grenadier (SS-210), USS S-44 (SS-155), USS Sculpin (SS-191), USS Tullibee (SS-284), USS Flier (SS-250), USS Tang (SS-306), USS S-36 (SS-141), USS S-27 (SS-132), USS S-39 (SS-144), and USS Darter (SS-227).

2.  Losses in Peacetime

The portions of the 20th century not included in WWI and WWII are considered, for the purposes of this discussion, peacetime.  This is a point of semantics and it will be argued by participants and historians for many decades to come.  During these peacetime periods we lost no more due to enemy action (Criteria 1). 

By stranding and foundering (Criteria 2), we lost USS H-1 (SS-28). 

3.  By collision (Criteria 3) we lost USS O-5 (SS-66), USS S-51 (SS-162), USS S-4 (SS-109) and USS Stickleback (SS-415).

4.  Losses for unknown reasons  (Criteria 4)  we lost USS O-9 (SS-70), and USS Scorpion (SSN-589). 

5.  Due to material or operational causes (Criteria 5) we lost USS F-4 (SS-21), USS S-5 (SS-110), USS Squalus (SS192), USS Cochino (SS-345) and USS Thresher (SSN-593)

6.  We lost no more boats under Criteria 6.

It is possible, however, that one other catastrophic loss might occur that should be remembered and listed.  The USS A-7 had a fire onboard that killed the entire crew.  The boat was not lost and, in fact, it continued in service. 

In addition, we as a Force have lost many shipmates as a result of enemy action, accident or as it has been called “the hazards of the sea”.  These men are listed separately from the boat losses here (http://www.oldsubsplace.com/Individual%20and%20group.htm).

There are indeed other criteria that could be used to count a loss.  One could count those submarines which by action of the enemy or by accident became "constructive total losses" and add Salmon, Nathaniel Greene, Bonefish and others. However, those boats and others like them were brought home by their crews and the decommissioned alongside with appropriate ceremony.  The decision that the boats structure would be repaired or discarded was made not by the sea, enemy or others of those things beyond our control, but by a considered process with the boat in port and the remainder of the crew safely ashore.

A case could be made for inclusion of S-48 and Guitarro and others which sank but were quickly salvaged and returned to service. To modify the existing criteria to that extent is not necessarily useful either.

USSVI currently has several DVD presentations of the Lost boats available with suitable musical accompaniment.  It is important to remember that the hulls are no more than 'tombstones' for the men who gave up their lives.  Make no mistake, the ceremony is all about the men, and not the boats.  In our USSVI ceremony, we always toll an additional time to remember those submarine men lost in service but where the boat was not lost, totaling 66 tolls of the bell.

Additional accurate DVD presentations of this important ceremony are always welcome.

I guess I got it wrong Pat (an age thing)... I hadn't realized that USSVI already had this material in place on a DVD(s) and I definitely do not want to work on anything that would presumably step on anyones toes... Let me know if there is anything else in the future that I can be of help with...