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Master and Commander
Posts: 2191
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula) | Subject: UPDATE: Battle Flags
No, I haven't disappeared, just concentrating on collecting the images and data involved for this project. I now have a photo file folder with about 180 battle flag pictures, some are of the same boat from different sources or formats (.jpg vs .gif etc.)... Bottom line is that I "probably" have about 120 of the 255 WWII boats that made patrols represented. In some cases where I couldn't locate a picture of the flag, I've saved a pix of the boat's sail where a score was shown...I also now know that the Naval Undersea Museum has five of these original battle flags and several other copies (pix on file). These flags (that weren't on display already) were brought out of storage last Sunday for me to photograph (curators and white gloove time!). I'm overloaded at this point and just continue to accumulate pictures. Information regarding the DEFINITE locations of other flags around the country where you can check (i.e. the Nautilus, Bowfin museums would be appreciated)... This is a picture taken Sunday of the original USS Croaker SS-246 battle flag (see? I am working Ralphy!)...
Edited by crystal 2009-03-26 2:36 AM
 (246CroakerOrigNUM.JPG)
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 246CroakerOrigNUM.JPG (74KB - 538 downloads)
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
That's great, John, it keeps you off the streets and away from unsuspecting women and children.  
Oh, by the way, the project, thanks to Steamboat's suggestion, looks good. Hang in there...atta boy, John. 
I'm trying to locate the USS Sennet SS-408 Battle Flag for ya. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2191
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula) | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
Coming Up
Edited by crystal 2009-03-26 5:47 AM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2191
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula) | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
See if this looks like it Ralph!
 (408Sennet.JPG)
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408Sennet.JPG (92KB - 519 downloads)
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
That's the one!! Do you have it or is that a picture?
Edited by Ralph Luther 2009-03-26 8:09 AM
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Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
Good on ya John.
Here is one for your collection.
This is George Grider, (second CO of Flasher 249) presenting th Battle flag to Capt. Carr 1st CO of the New Flasher. This hung in our crewsmess until first overhaul and now, According shipmate Ray Pico, is at the Bowfin Museum and in storage.
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Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
Here is another.
This is the battle flag of the USS Sculpin SS 191. Commanding Officer Lt. Commander Lucius H Chappell was presented this flag when he was relieved of command before the 9th and last fatal patrol.
The flag is in possession of Randy Chappell in Idaho. The fingers shown are mine.
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Old Salt
Posts: 251
Location: Beavercreek, Oregon | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
John, you may want to contact the following. He has been working on the same thing for years. http://donmac.org/Flags.htm |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
Wow. You are all ahead full on 4, Chief. Wish I had some knowledge to contribute. The only flag I know of personally is that the Torsk has hers in FTR.
We gotta give you a pay raise, John! That is a pretty good effort for $50.00!!!
BZ!!
Steamboat sends |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2191
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula) | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
Ahhh jeezzz, I'm blushing (nope, just high blood pressure as always!) Ric: Thanks for the pix, get the flag in Idaho donated (if you need help, ask)... Ralph: that is a picture, not the flag on hand... A lot of the pictures that I have pulled together are from two major sources (1) Donmac's efforts and (2) NavSource Pictures... Also; Frank Toon (my buddy from the WWII Blenny) sent a couple of interesting photos today that I tied into the collection. I will set up a page via the Sealion website with all of the flags to date (as soon as I feed my webtender, PargoBill, some more Twinkies!)... More to follow! This is the original Flasher's battle flag
Edited by crystal 2009-03-26 5:46 PM
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249Flasher2.jpg (46KB - 494 downloads)
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
Steamboat? Great scott man don't flatter that old worn out Chief too much. His head won't fit through the door....on second thought that might not be a bad idea. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2191
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula) | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
And the Torsk's (for Steamboat)
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423Torsk.jpg (11KB - 499 downloads)
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Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: Here's one more John
Also in private hands. Water stains match stains in National Archives photos.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2191
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula) | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
Ric, back to our original question and purpose for all this, why in private hands? These things shouldn't even be picked up the way you've got it in the picture. For instance: two (qualified w/degrees) collections management gals at the museum open a large (blueprint like) drawer, move a layer of tissue like material aside, gingerly lift out a flag on yet another layer of tissue and carefully lay it on a large table to have it photographed, then right back in the drawer. There are so many things wrong with this that it's infuriating. If you want to help, get these people to donate, not making it a personal photo op to grand stand... |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
I would dare say that the Confederate Museum in Richmond is one of the leading institutions in the business of preservation of Battle flags. They are the repository of hundreds of Confederate battle flags. These flags are kept in climate controlled environments and layed out in drawers much like John has described. One needs a research application to even view the ones that are not on display. The cotton material that our WWII flags are made from becomes extremly fragil and brittle with time and will simply disintigrate if not properly preserved. The worst thing one can do is to fold the material.
The clock is ticking, Gentlemen. We must take action now to preserve our charished history.
Steamboat sends
Edited by steamboat 2009-03-27 7:00 AM
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
Geeezzz John, give the guy a break. You have no idea on when those pictures were taken. If it's "infuriating" to you, get some vallium and chill out. Giving advice on how to handle the flags is helpful and appreciated just don't flip a lid that you don't seem to have.
Donations: Where to send and to whom do we make out the check or M.O. Also, if a flag is found, where should it be sent to and how? |
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Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
No arguments here, John. I did say that to these folks but their relatives got these flags at the end of WW II and they want to keep them. I will say the Thresher flag is in pretty good condition being on pretty heavy cloth. The Sculpin flag is very light material and starting to need help. I have encouraged the son the get the flag conserved but the last time I talked hadn't found anyone who do the job.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
Ric, that is exactly the problem I imagined that we would encounter with some private owners. What I think our mission will be, if they do not want to have a professional company preserve the flags, is to provide advise on preservation technics that they can take on thier own at minimal cost. By no means should they be folded, handled or left where sun or moisture can further damage them. I think Chief Clear alluded to preparing a brochure on proper storage and preservation techniques for private owners.
Our immediate concern is PRESERVATION. Later we can concentrate on Museum donation or sales.
Correct me if I am wrong, John.
Steamboat sends
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2191
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula) | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
You've got it Mr. Fulton! Although I would like to spend the time in convincing people to donate the flags, there are going to be some who, for whatever reason, chose not to and these are the ones we should get some basic preservation steps to (most of which basics have been brought up here already). When I first started with our old films (Silent Service series etal), I had to learn which film meant what kind of handling, how to clean, store (flat in the bottom of a freezer) etc. - essentially the same thing that needs to be brought up here... And you are right Ralph, I did jump on Ric a bit but HE should know better than handling these things as he was, it all comes down to common sense! I now have 99 different boat's flag pictures with quite a few repeats etc. on them. I have taken in all of Donmac's work and NavSource's as major contributor's. With the help of PargoBill I'll upload these to the Sealion webpage shortly for you to see what holes need to be plugged if available. The pix are by hull number & boat name in that order, ex: 315Sealion.jpg... I'll post here when they're up and running... |
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Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
I didn't know what the Sculpin flag was until I got it open. The owner didn't either, he didn't even know his dad it. It was rolled up in the bottom of his dads trunk of Navy stuff and probably hadn't seen the light of day in 50 years or more. The Thresher flag was pulled out of a safe and unwrapped and handed to me folded. Yes I do know now, (last few years), but it is hard to carry cotton gloves with you all the time "just in case". It was a true honor to have these artifacts in my hands. Both incidents happened unplanned for and were total surprises. |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 781
Location: Port Orchard WA | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
John When I bought my house the previous owner was the wife of one of the original curator of Sub Base Pearl Museum the late Davy Hoyt. He left behind a file cabinet with a folder from every boat up to the LA (this was in 1980 ) most had a group of pictures (including photos of a lot of battle flags) I turned them over to the staff at TTF and I know at one time they were all duplicated and were hanging in the halls of TTF. You might ask them if they still have them. It was several hundred photos about 3 or 4 per boat. This was from a time when the Museum from Keyport was just a few weapons and they were not interested. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
I have probably said this before, but if we could convince private owners to take steps toward preservation, stop handling unprotected flags, etc (perhaps a little monetary incentive?), and do it RIGHT NOW, then to put it in thier will that flags will go to a museum.
This would perhaps slow down deterioration and buy us some time.
Steamboat sends
BTW. I have in the back of my mind (no comments please) just how striking it would be to see a large poster with all the battle flags portrayed. Something like the submarine class posters we circulated last year. It could be sold as a fund raiser for flag preservation. I know it would appeal to a limited audiance, but it would be nice wouldn't it? Just a thought.
Stemboat sends
Edited by steamboat 2009-03-28 5:09 AM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1269
Location: Hopewell Junction NY | Subject: RE: UPDATE: Battle Flags
I don't know if it was common practice but at some point after WWII a 'battle' flag was created and many of the crew bought, or were given a copy as a memento of their service.
In the photo above you can see the flag that was used during the war. Here the boat is on PH for replenishment prior to steaming home. I've never heard what happened to this flag.
The flag that was created after the War and given as a memento is smaller and completely different.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2191
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (the Olympic Penninsula) | Subject: Raw Data Here
Hey PargoBill!!!! A Little Help Here (it don't want to cooperate for me)
Edited by crystal 2009-03-28 11:18 AM
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Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: Raw Data Here
Looks like you are pointing people to a folder that has no permissions for the general public viewing. You need to change this or make an HTML page. |
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UPDATE: Battle Flags
