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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
What's with all the Nazi symbols connected with this ROLLING THUNDER outfit? Facimilie Nazi helmets, Swastikas, Iron Crosses patches, backrests behind seats and front fender symbols all bearing the Iron Cross symbol, SS Deaths head patches, SS Double Lightning Bolts....Some guy told me that they are accepted outlaw biker symbols. Folks, I don't care how many of you pee-pee in your panties. My old man, who I honored today fought from North Africa to a week beyond the initial crossing of the Rhine at Remagen...He made four combat jumps, Sicily and fought until Palermo was taken....Chuted up and jumped on the Anzio beach to save the landing from a terrible counter attack...Hit the silk over Normandy the night of June 5th and fought his way through Carrington (I believe that the spelling)....Jumped on Neimegen and secured the bridge with Lt. Col Ruben Tucker (Robert Redford A BRIDGE TOO FAR)...His battalion was in on the liberation of Dachau. There's too much Nazi crap connected with this ROLLING THUNDER outfit for it to be coincidental or an abberation. I find that garbage an affront to the men who fought the bastards and the lads still resting in foriegn soil. First, raggedy ass, long haired, scuzzy looking motorcycle gangs do NOTHING to honor any serviceman....They are not dignified, respectful or conducting themselves in any fashion that is in keeping with the traditional way our veterans have been honored. You don't honor a man by driving all over the Nations Capital dressed like a bum. "Dex, those are Viet-Nam era cammoflage uniforms...You don't understand Viet-Nam guys." Sure as hell don't....You don't see WWII men, who won their war against the Japs, Krauts and Italians...You don't see them turning up in their combat uniforms...They come silently to the World War II Memorial and stand in silent reverence remembering the lads, who never made it back....I once had the honor of taking Warshot to the WWII Memorial...Because parking was non-existant I let him out at the curb....I told him I would circle around and keep returning to the point where I let him out...and said,"Ron, you take all the time you need...I'll be here when you return." It was about a year before he died...He was frail and in pain...He was respectfully dressed in coat and tie and he made the short journey unassisted, exceopt by his cane and returned with tear stained cheeks...It had been a tough emotional journey. You think those Rolling Thunder swastika guys represented that little tough cookie? Not on you ass. You think they are a credit to anything worthwhile. Viet-Nam is over...finished...put away the raggedy ass boonie hats, rumpled jungle suits, head bandanas, grenade ring neclaces, the flock FONDA shirts...the "Yea though I walk through the Valley of Death I will fear no evil, cause I'm the meanest sonuvabitch in the alley". If you're the meanest sonuvabitch in the Valley, how come your enemy still holds every battle field you fought on and you have to get HIS permission and a visa to take your son to see where you fought? You ever see a WWII guy wearing a shirt bragging about how tough he is? All that bastard has to do is recite his resume of battle action and you instictively KNOW how tough he was....and he can get the Germans and Japs to certify his toughness credentials. Everyone in my family except my Mother, Wife and Youngest Daughter has served...to include EVERY male, uncles, cousins, grandfathers and great grandfathers. And no sonuvabitch with his butt planted on a Harley, Gold Wing, HONDA or Toy's R' Us Big Wheels, represented any ARMSTRONG today...I'm ashamed that a motor bike jamboree is what Memorial Day has come to represent our fallen heroes....It used to be an absolutely wonderful day, filled with displays of crack honor guard troops...Speeches by victorious military leaders...dignity and serenity....Now it has degenerated and been reduced to a bunch of overgrown kids, hauling around town on loud, exhaust fume spewing machines and blocking the wives, children and elderly family members from visiting and honoring their loved ones in Arlington....I would have visited my Solveig today, but It was impossible to get past all the motorcycle children to get to the entrance gate at Arlington. Goddam obnoxious inconsiderate bums...who don't honor anyone but indulge themselves in their motor biking hobby at the expense of those more worthy than themselves. They sure as hell don't represent any of my family, the Nazi symbol perpetuators. Makes me sick...bastards cruising past the Holocaust Museum covered in swastikas, iron crosses. ss symbols and other emblems worn by the miserable bastards we had to bomb damn near to extinction to stop....DEX |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2540
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Dex, I went to their website and copied a few pictures and I don't see any of the items you have mentioned. All I see are a group of bikers, most of whom, I think did their time in many branches of our Military and working to make sure that NONE of our Military are ever forgotten.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1796
Location: Albany, GA. | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Do you really believe all Vietnam Vets are represented by those you seem to hate? Many served with honor and dignity, and still display these traits. About the occupation of the battlefields, the need for a visa and the lost war. Do you really feel those who served are responsible for that loss? There are many men in the ground, better than you or I, that fought to win. Yet you chose to denigrate them all. Your back to your old self, and I'm sorry for you. |
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Old Salt
Posts: 359
Location: Saco, Maine | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Some things will never change, Walt. |
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Crew
Posts: 73
Location: Kingwood, Texas | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Happy Memorial Day to you too, Dex.
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Crew
Posts: 73
Location: Kingwood, Texas | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Happy Memorial Day to you too, Dex.
Edited by Myron 2009-05-24 6:06 PM
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Dex, I believe those of who you speak are "Rolling Thunder Wannabees" and don't have the brains to do it right.
Edited by Ralph Luther 2009-05-24 6:29 PM
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 561
Location: Belleview, Fl | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
I recieved one of the best salutes the other day at a car show, while I was not there to show my truck and my son was not interested for some reason to look at the cars and that suprised me because he is a car buff at the tender age of 6... There was a older gentleman whom was there to see the cars of yesterday and he saw my base decal and stood tall and saluted me and with a tear in his eye he gave me a parade ground salute, so I stopped my truck and got out and returned it and said thank you for your service sir and he told me polietly that it was his honor to thank me for my service (honestly he surprised me because my truck is LOUD).... when we circled the grounds trying to find a parking spot here was the gentleman that gave me such a fine salute getting into his car and he motioned for me to take his spot and I was suprised when I saw his tag "MDWAY"
When I grew up my grandfathers were telling me stories from WWII and my uncles were talking about their time in Korea and as I got older I listened to stories of a place called Viet Nam from those whom served there and how it changed their lives and I had forgotten about the stories that my friends Bill, Tom and Chancey talked about and that was about Rolling Thunder until I went to combat with the 3d Inf Div those stories came back to me loud and clear... The one thing that they told me that I will NEVER forget now is that when you see a B-52 go overhead and watch it drop it's bombs it is a thing that cannot be explained or understood unless you were there to see it or more importantly FEEL it. Remember I have served on 688's, worked on AH-64A&D Apache Attack Helicopters and for me to see and then FEEL the devistation that a B-52 could do was one of the most incredible things that I could ever see in my life and when they dropped their payloads we found out what Bill, Tom and Chancey were talking about when they said you just can't explain Rolling Thunder and they were right.
Rolling Thunder can't be explained to those whom have never seen or felt it and yes it crosses generations of combat veterans and I salute those whom support the Rolling Thunder club for what they stand for and for whom they stand for.. For those whom served in Viet Nam it was a war that was lost by the politicians and yet they still served just as bravely as those whom served in WWI and WWII and for my fellow servicemembers whom have passed I SALUTE you.
And to those whom don't stand behind or with today's servicemember's I feel a great sorrow because we are of the same calibre that the soldiers/sailors/marines that started the fight for freedom of this great country so many years ago and we still stand up for those who can no longer fight and we ask for nothing other then a smile and a thank you.
For my family members, friends and comrades in arms whom have passed I SALUTE YOU and while you are gone you are NOT forgotten
Darrin
frmr TM3(SS), EO3(SS) 718,717,711,692 and NMCB1
SSG, USA 101st Airborne, G Co 52nd Avn, 3d Inf Div (D Co 1-3 Avn ATK), 3rd S&F Ft Eustis, Va |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
I believe in honoring our fallen with dignity and honor...That boys and girls means coat and tie, pride taken in personal appearance. The way Memorial Day used to be. The Washington Post Magazine had a photo comparison of the Memorial Day service in 194O something service at the Arlington Cemetary Ampatheater...The first photo showed people decked out in their Sunday best...the second didn't. The contrast shows how far we've come in lost values and respect. One problem with a lot of folks here...You can wrap anything in patriotic colors and symbolism, tie it to some vague idea about honoring troops and these folks swallow the whole load...hook. line and sinker. It's funny, no poster explained the connection between, motorcycles, Nazi regalia and symbols and honoring America's war dead...That still eludes me. Venders selling Jane Fonda urinal targets with her face printed on them...disgusting...those bastards ought to be run off our National Mall. Last night I drove two WWII vets, from the Fifth Marines down to the WWII Memorial. The motorbike children had traffic tied up and all you could see was trash and empty beer cans. I have attended events on the National Mall all my life...On National Prayer Day called by President Bush a few years back...young teenagers policed the entire Mall and the next morning it was completely clear, to include the trash cans. Difference RESPECT, HONOR and ACTING PROPERLY...Folks it has everything to do with Proper Leadership. What if these guys had taken all the money wasted in driving in circles, doing "wheelies", shouting UUUUrah and trashing our nation's capital and put it into something truly worthwhile, like puttring toys under the Christmas trees of kids whose dads died in combat. Folks, for the first time America fights her wars with mercinaries...Military units are in many instances commanded by contractors...Blackwatwer and KBR are hiring foriegn dictator trained animals to augment our eaten up military...our wornout, over deployed troops. America now pays obscene bonuses to entice young people into the uniform of their country...No one seems to give a damn about a man's obligation to serve his of her colors. When you hear the term CONTRACT SECURITY FORCES it means hired thugs and folks who turned in their elite force uniform for the big bucks...to include my daughter and son-in-law (retiring to become a consultant, re-employed annuitant or contract "not subject to the UCMJ" shooter, is very,very lucrative). So like the last days of the Roman Empire...We have the feels good at the moment "Bread and Circus", population placating mass doo-dahs...involving that led-by-the-nose demographic, the American Patriot...I read an artical in an automobile showroom managers professional journal advising the dealers (honest to God) to go out and buy the most oversized American flag they can lay their hands on...build a giant pole...run the flag up...and illuminate it at night....(1) It ties you to American's sense of patrriotism (2) It gets around all the ordinances governing outdoor advertising, signage codes and local jurisdictional restrictions...and, this one is a new one on me, flag poles are not required to have aviation warning lights. (3) No politician in his or her right mind would be stupid enough to call into question or raise any objection to the display of the American flag. Why they would be up to their armpits in irate patriots and every veteran's organization in the country. It concluded that the mega flagpole was the cheapest and most emotionally charged form of adverising ever devised. Somehow I never thought of the flag that covered the Old Man's casket as one hell of a clever adverising gimmick...shows how damn dumb I am. In reading the posts here, I see where men who hold ideals similar to mine are a dying breed, but I had the honor of being with two of my own kind last night...two old jarheads, crippled with the effects of long longevity, short of breath, stamina and everything but the lion's heart of a true warrior. My Memorial Day was built around the pride I felt as those two old dinged-up, forged in combat and the pride that comes from bringing about something we haven't heard much about lately "Unconditional Surrender" struggled to make it to the national THANK YOU for their service....One of the bastards said, "I survived the Great Depression, Tarawa, Iwo and deseases caught from San Diego whores...but looking at these youngsters, it's time to cash in my chips and get the hell out of the game." Hey, if you weren't here...frankly you haven't a clue. I still want to know what the connection is between motorcycling and Nazi symbols. DEX |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2673
Location: New Jersey | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Sewer Pipe Snipe - 2009-05-24 4:37 PM Your back to your old self, and I'm sorry for you.
That didn't take long did it!
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1262
Location: Va.Beach,Va. | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Dex,
I'm in your corner when it comes to the symbols displayed by the bikers you
encountered.The Rolling Thunder ride is a function of Vietnam Veterans of America
and is intended not only to spotlight the issues of Vietnam Vets but to honor and remember
ALL Americans who gave thier lives in the name of thier country.The symbols you
are so rightly opposed to,while in common use and accepted by bikers acposs the
country,have no place or function in relation to these guys' purpose.It seems
that some of these guys want to be a combination of Vietnam Vet and Hell's Angel
and don't have a clue that the Symbols and appearance of one group do not
neccessarily complement the other.Perhaps the local chapter of VVA should be
made aware of the insensitivity of this action which is ,in no way,the intent of the
organization.
I do have to take issue,however,with your comparison of WWII vets to Vietnam
vets.Your Father,my Father ,John Wayne and Warshot are certainly to be forever
revered as heros but thier degree of heroism cannot be looked upon as being
more or less important than ANY other American ,Vietnam Vets included,who
bled and died for his country.When you look at "THE WALL" you see the names
of Americans who are just as heroic,just as patriotic,and just as dead as any
other fighting man in American history.
We all know the Vietnam war was created,conducted and LOST,not on the battle-
field,but on the beltway.Blaming Vietnam vets for the outcome of the war is way
off base,my friend.Remember the "warm welcome home"the poor bastards who
lucky enough to come home got from the "adoring American public"who,feuled
by dumbassed politicians,Jane Fonda,and the liberal press,greeted them with
names like "Baby Killer"and worse.You and I know and respect several of those guys .They are here with us on this BBS.
We should not and can not let the outward appearance of any group of people
deter us from the overall purpose of the sponsering organization.
Hell,how many gatherings of "Brothers of the 'Phin"have you and I participated in
that ,to the unenlightened,portrayed Other than heroic or patriotic,sometimes
irreveverant behavior?But we know better,don't we?
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Good post, Paul.
I wish I could lay the right words out there to communicate as Dex does. I can understand what he is saying and for the most part agree with what he is saying and believe me RESPECT does place very highly in my views.
I do agree that respect has slipped down the scale quite a bit over the recent years. Not in just the military sector, but in everything. Why is this? Beets the hell out of me!! Low respect for teachers, low respect for law enforcement, low respect for the elderly, low respect to parents by their children and the list goes on. IMHO the ones to blame are ourselves for letting it slip thru our fingers. We have ourselves to blame for not going to the polls and voting in the proper officials. We have ourselves to blame for not getting involved in the PTAs, calling and writing to the TV and radio stations to complain about so dumb ass reporter running off at the mouth with a bunch of BS. Awww let someone else do it. I've got a T time and can't be bothered. There's a real neat "American Idol" program on TV tonight rather than going to a PTA Meeting. Do ya catch my drift??? |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1796
Location: Albany, GA. | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
OK, I'll address your question. How many of those guys were with Rolling Thunder? Did they display the patch and jacket? I know one or two from around here. They served with honor, one has more ribbons than you and I put together. He is a recognized local leader in the Veteran community. Fought in a little place called Vietnam. I have never seen a swastika, or any Nazi stuff on any of their bikes. Just like the members of the Patriot Guard that ride around here. Unfortunately no orginization has control over those that chose to ride along. This is America isn't it. The same America we, and all others served to protect. Seems there is a little clause in a thing called The Constitution that allows them to display what they want. Whether you, I or any other Vet finds it offensive or not. If by chance some of them served, then it is double their right to do what they will. Neither you, nor I apparently raised them. Yet we can both feel they should be better behaved and more respectful. Streets are still public property, and we can't control which vehicle chooses to travel them. As long as they are street legal. So, I doubt if a true Rolling Thunder Bike had those symbols. If one did, apparently their Chapter accepts it as a design statement. I don't like a lot of things. I especially don't like someone denigrating any Vet, especially on Memorial Day. Whether they served for a cause, because they were drafted, because they needed a job or because of the money. They all served, just as you or I did. Sure puts them one step above those that chose not to serve in my book. |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 561
Location: Belleview, Fl | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
When I grew up my grandfathers didn't talk to the family about their time in WWII with the exception of me and and my brother, I still remember the stories of 7 Dec 41 when Grandpa Nimon was serving on a Tin Can and he had slept in only to be woken due to the Japanese bombing Pearl.. or my grandpa Singer whom told stories of the strugle for the South Pacific being a Seabee and being wounded in combat only to return on his own days later without doc's concent so he could keep the airfields open for our Army Air Corps/Marine Corps airplanes so they could keep flying and keeping the fight on their terms and my grandpa Buchenroth telling the stories of life in Africa working on P-51s, somewhere between my house and my mom's house are tapes that I made of him telling his story of his war in WWII. (Grandpa's Nimon and Buchenroth were step grandfathers and my mom's dad sadly I did not get to meet due to a plane crash that ended his life before I was born). Nor will I forget my uncle Joe telling me stories of being shot down in a P-51 and being held POW for a couple of years before WWII ended, he went from a flying SGT to COL before he retired. My true hero is my father whom was a RM3 on Super Connies in between Korea and Viet Nam, he may not have been the best RM or so he says and he didn't really ever talk about his time in the air until I graduated from Attack Helicopter maintainer school, little did I know that he chased the Ruskies during the Cuban Missile Crisis until a couple of years ago.
And yes I remember the Memorial Day parades that the whole town would come out in their best dress and pay homage to those whom have served and the whole town would shut down to honor the men and it was wonderful as a kid to see that, one year I asked my father and my friends father where the Viet Nam Vets were (this was roughly '76,'77) and they looked down and held my little hand and told me that they were not invited to march in the parade due to them loosing a war that they could not win.. For me I didn't understand that and to this day I don't understand why a little town in Ohio didn't want ALL of their veterans on parade for Memorial day or 4th of July and for many years that has bothered me and when I came home from Desert Storm we got a hero's welcome that hadn't been seen in many many years and while marching in Honolulu the Viet Nam vets lined the streets and stood proud and saluted us and some cried and said words that haunt me..... WHY didn't WE get the same reception when we came home??
While I know and understand that Viet Nam was not a popular war and neither is the current Iraq and Afganistan wars, I can only hope that we NEVER do that again to our service members regardless of how popular their war is/was. The war in Viet Nam has been over for 30+ years now and to this day I still welcome them home everytime that I meet a different 'Nam vet and if in a bar I buy them a round no questions asked and many have asked why I did that and my simple reply has been.... because you served your country and you did not recieve the welcome home that you deserved when you came home and because of folks like you I did when I came home both times.
Yes you can say that I grew up with a family full of hero's and then served with some of the finest men and women whom have given their all so that others may know what it means to be free. I honor those whom have served and passed away this weekend and for me this weekend is always tough and sad because I have known so many fine men and women whom have passed before their time defending our freedom.
For my cousin David whom came home from Iraq broken, Our family knows that sadly you never left there and hopefully where ever you are may you find peace one day before it is too late (David and I were both in the initial push to Baghdad in 3d ID).
And for Dex, no I don't know why the bikers where the apparel that they wear that used to symbolize death and destruction on a day that is meant to respect those whom gave their all for our freedom.. Honestly I have never asked any of them why they wear that and honestly I don't care what they wear because most whom show up for the Memorial day service in DC have served and they as far as I am concerned can wear what ever they would like because they fought for our freedom also. |
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Those "Nazi symbols" you rant about for the most part can be traced way back into hearldry, long before Adolph and the boys were ever born, let alone went on their path of infamy. A couple of the symbols actually come from religions sources, as a matter of fact. I have no idea whether the Rolling Thunder crowd is all painted out as you described - I've seen them several times and the photos that have been posted are completely representative of what I saw. In fact, take a close look at a lot of US Army patches - you'll see the so-called SS lightning bolts and I know that those guys are not Nazis. Take a look at several of the WWII boat patches -- and you'll see the human skull. Again, not a single Nazi in the bunch. Then look at many of the US&N and USMC Viet-F-ing-Nam patches and you'll see all sorts of stuff that I could call irreverent maybe, but some of those basic designs are also seen in Nazi Germany political, SS, and other wermacht logos - yet, I daresay there wasn't a single Nazi among those USN and USMC folks who went to that s-hole place called Nam. My point? IF the Rolling Thunder crowd uses what you personally see as Nazi symbols, that certainly doesn't make them Nazis. Nor does wearing a particular style of brain bucket that you seem to disapprove transmit their political beliefs. Even the Orange County Chopper guys wear that style as do maybe 3 out of every 5 bikers I see on the road - so I guess by your standards, we have an awful lot of Nazis loose on the roads of America. I think not. Perhaps they are using Nazi symbols and wearing Nazi helmets just to irritate you?? |
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Old Salt
Posts: 330
| Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
It's a Valid Question -
Why would someone participating in an event to honor fallen comrades, choose to wear a symbol that so many would interpret as so vile? -- It's a legit question.
All of the other WWII Vets v. Viet Nam Vets is just 'over the top' BS.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: I thought it was too....
....and I recall a few years ago a comment I made about the fact that we ( Aussie Navy and I am led to believe the Royal Navy also ) unofficially fly the Jolly Roger aka skull and bones aka the pirates flag as part of our submarine hiostory.
Sheeesh, that certainly brought some heated debate amongst some of you Americans who also likened it to flying the Nazi flag....sorry to say, who ever it was that voiced their strong disapproval, but we didn't change it just for you.
The Jolly Roger proudly flies onboard the ex HMAS OVENS here in Fremantle....it's history, but not everything has a bad history - even with the same symbol/flag.
People have a right to ask..."why do you fly that horrible flag which denotes piracy"?
we have the right to tell them about the thoughts of a Lord Admiral from WWI when he described pirates and submariners with the same disdain.
Blue *_* |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: I thought it was too....
Blue from West Oz - 2009-05-26 1:25 PM
....and I recall a few years ago a comment I made about the fact that we ( Aussie Navy and I am led to believe the Royal Navy also ) unofficially fly the Jolly Roger aka skull and bones aka the pirates flag as part of our submarine hiostory.
Sheeesh, that certainly brought some heated debate amongst some of you Americans who also likened it to flying the Nazi flag....sorry to say, who ever it was that voiced their strong disapproval, but we didn't change it just for you.
The Jolly Roger proudly flies onboard the ex HMAS OVENS here in Fremantle....it's history, but not everything has a bad history - even with the same symbol/flag.
People have a right to ask..."why do you fly that horrible flag which denotes piracy"?
we have the right to tell them about the thoughts of a Lord Admiral from WWI when he described pirates and submariners with the same disdain.
Blue *_*
So it's a "back at you" sort of thing.
Some horse's posterior says we're no better than pirates.
So we'll show him, we'll wear that label as a badge of honour.
Hoist that Jolly Roger, fly it high so he can't help but see it.
Sounds like something submariners would do. 
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Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
Here are some of those "symbols" you talk about.
http://www.orderstjohn.org/osj/cross.htm
http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm
The swastika is an extremely powerful symbol. The Nazis used it to murder millions of people, but for centuries it had positive meanings. What is the history of the swastika? Does it now represent good or evil?
The Oldest Known Symbol
The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE.
During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika was used by many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe. By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:
* China - wan
* England - fylfot
* Germany - Hakenkreuz
* Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
* India - swastika
Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also have long used the symbol of the swastika.
The Original Meaning
The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.
Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.
Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.
A Change in Meaning
In the 1800s, countries around Germany were growing much larger, forming empires; yet Germany was not a unified country until 1871. To counter the feeling of vulnerability and the stigma of youth, German nationalists in the mid-nineteenth century began to use the swastika, because it had ancient Aryan/Indian origins, to represent a long Germanic/Aryan history.
By the end of the nineteenth century, the swastika could be found on nationalist German volkisch periodicals and was the official emblem of the German Gymnasts' League.
In the beginning of the twentieth century, the swastika was a common symbol of German nationalism and could be found in a multitude of places such as the emblem for the Wandervogel, a German youth movement; on Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels' antisemitic periodical Ostara; on various Freikorps units; and as an emblem of the Thule Society.
Hitler and the Nazis
In 1920, Adolf Hitler decided that the Nazi Party needed its own insignia and flag. For Hitler, the new flag had to be "a symbol of our own struggle" as well as "highly effective as a poster." (Mein Kampf, pg. 495)
On August 7, 1920, at the Salzburg Congress, this flag became the official emblem of the Nazi Party.
In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic." (pg. 496-497)
Because of the Nazis' flag, the swastika soon became a symbol of hate, antisemitism, violence, death, and murder.
What Does the Swastika Mean Now?
There is a great debate as to what the swastika means now. For 3,000 years, the swastika meant life and good luck. But because of the Nazis, it has also taken on a meaning of death and hate.
These conflicting meanings are causing problems in today's society. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. Chirag Badlani shares a story about one time when he went to make some photocopies of some Hindu Gods for his temple. While standing in line to pay for the photocopies, some people behind him in line noticed that one of the pictures had a swastika. They called him a Nazi.
Unfortunately, the Nazis were so effective at their use of the swastika emblem, that many do not even know any other meaning for the swastika. Can there be two completely opposite meanings for one symbol?
In ancient times, the direction of the swastika was interchangeable as can be seen on an ancient Chinese silk drawing.
Some cultures in the past had differentiated between the clockwise swastika and the counter-clockwise sauvastika. In these cultures the swastika symbolized health and life while the sauvastika took on a mystical meaning of bad-luck or misfortune.
But since the Nazis use of the swastika, some people are trying to differentiate the two meanings of the swastika by varying its direction - trying to make the clockwise, Nazi version of the swastika mean hate and death while the counter-clockwise version would hold the ancient meaning of the symbol, life and good-luck.
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What's it with ROLLING THUNDER and Nazi symbols?
