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Old Salt
Posts: 402
| Subject: Nazi emblems
The iron cross was issued for valor long before Adolf came around. In fact Adolf won an iron cross for valor during WWI, (and the officer that presented him with the medal was Jewish, he must have hated that!). The swastika was and old symbol of good luck. It was belirved that if the swastika was tilted, as the Nazi's did, the luck would run out of it and it seemed to be the case for them. During WWII an infantry division from Oklahoma, I believe it was the 45th Division but don't hold me to that, had the swastika as the emblem on their sholder patch. They had to change it to the Thunderbird before deploying overseas to fight in Germany. The one symbol that represented the Nazi party was actually the shovel. It was used on some of the devices early on. I believe it was supposed to represent them as a working man's party as opposed to the rich guys that they had a hatred for. Just like the Soviet Communists used the hammer and cycle. I have even seen early Nazi emblems that had the hammer and cycle. The skull device often seen dates back to the Hessions and is still used by armored units in the German Army, last I saw.
But I do agree with Dex that people who want to partray themselves as Americans for the U.S.A. should wear emblems from the U.S. Like the Stars and Stripes or the bald eagle. Too many men have died or been seriously wounded representing that emblem.
Take Care,
Steve
Edited by Land Lubber 2009-05-27 3:31 PM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1324
Location: Oxnard, CA | Subject: RE: Nazi emblems
I hate to say it, but, ...
A good idea is a good idea, no matter where it comes from, or whose idea it was.
For instance, the British helmets of WWII were the same tin pans they (and we) used during WWI. We changed over to the steel helmet that is so familiar. The Germans developed the "Darth Vader" style we all know.
But lately (past 20 or so years) the U.S. Army has come up with a replacement helmet, made of Kevlar. The shape of the new U.S. helmet is reminiscent of the WWII German pot with the built in visor and ear protector. |
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Old Salt
Posts: 431
| Subject: RE: Nazi emblems
Some Indian tribes use a Swastika like emblem to denote the 4 winds and its variations. |
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Old Salt
Posts: 330
| Subject: RE: Nazi emblems
I'm sure the BIKER was thinking of a Native Four Wind symbol...
You Guys Quack Me Up!
The lengths you'll go to, to pull Dex's choke chain...
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: Nazi emblems
Thanks Steve....As explained to me. Somewhere early in the development of what has become the motorcycle culture, motorcyclists adopted a counter culture attitude...a rogue, outlaw, non-conformist personna. The Marlon Brando Wild Bunch gang movie...They adopted despcable symbols...skulls, symbols associated with death, the most despicable of all the Nazi sub-culture, the Confederate battle flag, symbols of devil worship, pagan cults....anything beyond decent acceptabily. They wanted a mystique, the display of an attitude that went against the grain of society..."rubbed the cat fur the wrong way"...The iron cross ( actually known as the Maltese Cross as it originated with the Knights of Malta, for designating Maltese Knights...knights that assembled on the Mediteranian Isle of Malta and used it as a staging and logistics base for several of the Crusades to retake the Holy Land.)....There is some sort of connection between the symbol of the returning knights and the Teutonic adoption of the Maltese Cross. The use of oak leaves and swastika also date back to their adoption by the Teutonic Germanic peoples. The Harley-Davidson dealership here recognizes the innappropriate nature of swastika, iron cross, german helmet symbolism but tells me "It's part of the "outlaw nature" of motorcycling...as is black leather, chains, chrome studs and rivets..."dew rags", heavy boots with thick steel taps and heel plates....The fellow kept telling me, "You have to understand they are rogues who are outside of the expected norm....free spirits, who go where they please, act like they please and don't ask or receive permission. I was told, that Nazi symbolism is to ingrained in the outlaw, anti-conformist image of motorcycling to be seperated at this point....like flaming skulls, the Grim Reaper, death angels (whatever in the hell they are), upside down crosses, Satanic Stars, Devil Worship symbols and cult symbolism. I asked the fellow..."What'n the hell does this have to do with honoring deceased American Veterans?" His answer, These guys have tied their propensity for their rally gatherings to a convenient non-asailable cause, and have taken over the nations capital at the expense of most of the once-upon-a-time National celebrations. It is now impossible to visit the graves of loved ones resting in the hallowed ground at Arlington because the motorcycle children tie up the traffic and block access. Retreats given by cadre at local military installations have gone by the board because of motorcycle traffic blocking access, The Mall Concert still goes on...WHY? No interest to the motorcyclists....No more Memorial Day Evening Services at the national cathedrals, temples, mosques, and religious centers. Look at it this way...If you lived in East Bubblegum, Idaho and every year 50,000 guys riding big old loud motorcycles decended on you and took over your town on Memorial Day and highjacked the place, forced you and your neighbors inside your homes, because guys with their flag covered toys were runing up and down doing things called "wheelies", and revving up engines the size of PT boat Chrysler Marines, then backing off on the gas causing wake-the-dead racket...and you couldn't go to visit the grave of Uncle Pete, who got it wading ashore at Tarrawa...You could go see him on Memorial Day, because little motorcycle children were running all over town riding four abreast pissing off people. Well opposition to the infantile behavior and takeover of the entire city is growing. The foliks that call this place home are growing weary of the "grown out of hand" foolishness and the absolute disruption of locally based pagentry to honor our fallen military personnel. Editorials have begun to appear calling for confining all the motorcycle activity to three Federally managed areas. I know that the organizers and vendors pride themselves on the ever growing number of participants...but the damn thing has become a mechanical locust plague. The backlash is forming....There's a new bumpersticker floating around I HATE MOTORCYCLES AND I VOTE...not many but the camel has his nose under the skirt of the tent. Still can't understand the affinity for all the Nazi crap. DEX |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1796
Location: Albany, GA. | Subject: RE: Nazi emblems
You need to look at what Myrtle Beach South Carolina did about the bikers. Or ask Cora about Sturgis. Your problem isn't with the likes of the Patriot Guard, but with the element that is attracted to these rallies that are there to party. Me, I live in the country and don't seem to have these problems. Plenty of others, but none from Bikers. Wheats ruined because of all the rain, and the fields are too wet to get the peanuts planted on time. It's a down year for our Farmers. |
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Old Salt
Posts: 402
| Subject: RE: Nazi emblems
Dex, you are right. The "hardcore biker" , the outlaw kind likes to wear a patch indicating 1%. There had been a report from the legitimate riders that 98% of the people riding bikes were law abiding citizens so the outlaw class adopted the 1% to set themselves apart. I understand the skull symbols represent the grim reaper. It is believed that the only biker who has not gone down is the one who is going to go down. The possibility of dying or being severly injured by crashing a bike is great so in their mind the grim reaper is always waiting for them. But of course there are a ot of people who like to ride for the fun and sense of freedom you can get. Look at Doc sitting on his Harley or Don Gentry or others on this system. And I don't see any evil symbols on any of them. I don't know why some of the people who ride and are not outlaws whant to look like outlaws. But it's not limited to bikers anymore. How many times you see people in combat style BDUs with their pants pegged into their boots and they never served in the military. It's now illegal for a collector to possess a Medal of Honor because some fools were wearing them and trying to pass themselves off as having been issued one. It seems to me people are not happy with being who they are. Maybe they just don't know themselves. I collect militay items. I have done this for a long time. I have a Purple Heart inscribed with a name. I found this at an collectables show. With the medal was a Philippine Defense Ribbon. The man who sold me the medal said the items had been together when he received them. I keep them in my collection. When I look at them I wonder what the man must have been like. He was probably a POW and had suffered greatly. Now, I would not think of pinning that medal on myself and parading around in it. I could not dishonor the man who had earned it. But there are some who want to play at being something they are not. In my collection I have a pair of dolphins as well as jump wings and a set of naval aviator wings. Again I would not think of wearing them. I have them to keep from harm. When I am gone from this world they will pass on to someone else who will hopefully care for them as I have. To me they are precious items of history.
NOW some of you guys may already know this.... the Marlon Brando charactor in the Wild Bunch rode a Triumph bike not a Harly.
Take Care,
Steve |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2254
Location: Foothills of the Ozarks | Subject: Leave me out of this
You Guys Quack Me Up!
My Harley has no stickers of any kind on it. Just an old quack with a set of bagpipes
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Old Salt
Posts: 431
| Subject: RE: Nazi emblems
Curt - 2009-05-28 11:46 AM
I'm sure the BIKER was thinking of a Native Four Wind symbol...
You Guys Quack Me Up!
The lengths you'll go to, to pull Dex's choke chain...
Im pretty sure they dont. But I was pointing out that it has a far different signifigance to others.
So quack on
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 892
Location: Palo Pinto County, Texas | Subject: RE: Nazi emblems
Well folks, I've been perusing these threads about Nazi Emblems and Nazi Symbols. You know that this is Memorial WEEK, with the federal Monday observance and the traditional observance on Saturday the 30th. Isn't America great? I drive an imported van from South Korea, a country that I spent a bunch of time around as a teenager [more time around North Korea though]. Do I have a 'vanity plate' or a bumper sticker of significance or a magnet or two representing something? The honest answer is YES. But in reality, it's none of your cotton picking business! I don't really care what your transportation choice may be, two wheeler, three wheeler, eighteen wheeler or whatever.
I'm not a "biker" by definition although I spent many enjoyable hours on a 450CC Ducati dirt-bike while still on active duty and riding the sand dunes etc with my boys on their 90CC Hodakas. I just don't personally believe that it is safe to mix two wheelers with four wheelers on the big road! To each his own.
This is a great week to remember those comrades that have paid the supreme sacrifice that we may have these choices. Among our choices is where we choose to reside. I'm darned well pleased that I don't have to live within close proximity to the beltway that surrounds the pit of the USA!
I could go on about my participation with a group of bikers that are currently doing great things to support a 501c3 non-profit organization that I'm active with. I don't have a problem with bikers. I do have a problem with antagonists that have their head up their rear end. I've probably said too much already.
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Old Salt
Posts: 330
| Subject: RE: Nazi emblems
RE: 'QUACK ON'
You know, we 'Terrible T' Sailors can do a lot of Quacking!
Curt
http://www.cdhaggard.com/boats.html
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2561
Location: Rapid City, SD | Subject: Guess I have a 'vanity' plate also -
It has a wheelchair on it.
Cora |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: Nazi emblems
Dex, Old buddy, I hope you didn't do it intentionally, but you are walking on the fighten side of me by calling the Confederate Battle Flag a "despicable symbol" and "against decent acceptability". I know how you feel about your southern heritage, so I think it was a misuse of words on your part.
Yes I agree that the battle flag has been taken over by outlaw and counter-culture groups and that is a travisty. But it is in the public relm and nothing that the Sons of Confederate Veterans or nay Southern Patriot can do about it except to keep preaching the true history and meaning of the flag.
Steamboat sends |
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Nazi emblems
