|
|
Senior Crew
Posts: 226
Location: San Diego, CA | Subject: New Diesel Boats
We had a guest speaker at our B-Girl Reunion (Barbel, Blueback, & Bonefish) last weekend that brought cheers when we were told that there is a push in the current government to overcome the Nuclear Mafia and bring back diesel or AIP submarines. Now that nucs cost 2 billion dollars each, they have concluded that the US cannot afford too many more. Diesel or AIP boats would cost a lot less.
He said that they may start will a few training boats, but you never know where they may go from there. Time will tell if we ever see and more diesel boats. |
|
| |
|
Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
I put this same suggestion in at this site: http://change.gov/ Despite the fact you did or didn't vote for the administration it doesn't hurt to sound off and let them know what you want.
http://change.gov/ |
|
| |
|
Old Salt
Posts: 402
| Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
Just my opinion but... We all know that the number of collisions involving U.S. submarines seem to be increasing. The San Francisco, running full tilt in the trench, The Hartford running fast in the streight. Some think the crews aren't as competent at in the past. I Say No. I believe the number of assignments requireing submarines have incrrease while the number of boats available for assignment has decreased. I would think that going from point A to point B in a fast manner increases the possibility for an incident, like a collison to occur. It makes perfect sense that deisel submarines can carry out some of the asignments. I think if we see an increase in aircraft carrier assignments, (and the way things look lately that could be soon), then we will see an increase in carrier accidents.
As for budgeting the government money, Lincoln said it best. "You can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
There just seems to be to much on the plate these days, some good, some bad. The thing that gets me most is a lot of the work in manufacture and assymbly are automated therby reducing the number of people involved in the process. This results in the reduction of costs in pay, health care, etc. involved in the manufacturing of parts and components, yet the price of the parts and componets increase rather than decrease. I know the price of raw materials has risen but I don't think it offsets the savings of automation. I'm afraid some people are getting very rich at the expense of the nation's defense and ultimately someone's life. But on the positive side, our nation has been through this sort of thing in the past and we have always survived.
Well I hope I haven't offended anyone with this post, that was never intended.
Take Care,
Steve |
|
| |
|
Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 781
Location: Port Orchard WA | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
And just where are we going to get these boats and the technology or are we just going to trot out the blueprints for the B girls and go from there. Yah know we will start out by buying them from some other country and watch how fast the cost of the Boats rises as the economy continues to decline (especially if we are trying to get our technology up to speed and buying from Germany or Sweden at the same time). By the way what we will gain in "quiet" propulsion (the Nat. Circ Plant still seem unmatched in quietness look for the hole in the ocean quiet) we will lose in endurance and with the electronics (cause you don't think a couple of thousand horsepower diesels are going to match what 4 steam turbines spit out. Also what happens to the $$$ for the cheap diesel boats when we star incorporating sound isolation and attenuation and other quieting features that are part of the nukes and how about the $$$ for the sonar and electronics currently on the Nukes and in the Nuc Prices but not in the cheap Diesel Boats Just a thought, we might think about. why build more just fix and moidify the ones we got until we develop some new technologies of our own and the country gets out of the mess were in right now. And the problem with the high speed transits is like a lot of other thing going wrong right now and that is the lack of planning and thinking through the consequences (not just in the military but in everything) That has not been done in about 20 years) (No not creeping Nucism, creeping big government and social services) |
|
| |
|
Plankowner
Posts: 9165
Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map. | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
What about trying out some of this new technology we need by just building some new rear ends and tacking it onto some boats we are decommissioning, We already know how to build the hulls...and besides doesn't GD already own the German sub building company. Didn't they buy that about 10 years ago? |
|
| |
|
Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 781
Location: Port Orchard WA | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
still doesnot solve the basic problem of the power to drive the warfare systems onboard.The emgergency diesel generator on a nuc boat with battery will only run about 1/4 of all systems for about two or three hours. No ventilation no "life support" and speed is limited to much less than WWII boats were able to do. And again running the diesel definitely makes any boat to noisy the great stealth is when on the super batteries not on the diesels |
|
| |
|
Master and Commander
Posts: 1431
| Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
The costs of diesel fuel today would /could reach 200 million dollars over the life of a single diesel powered sub. Heard that bit of info on a
program about current nucs. |
|
| |
|
Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 781
Location: Port Orchard WA | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
I know that most here would love to see the DBFs come back but I think if we are smart about what we are doing the submarine Navy will go the way of the Carrier Navy in that we will go to unmanned little scout boats operrating from mother subs that way you could have one old Trident for example sitting on the bottom some where outside the limits sending out numerous little scout boats which coulfd be made extremely stealthy operate off of battery and cover hundreds of miles at a fraction of the cost of even one DBF. No risk of life or limb. Need one in a hurry airdrop it and go in a recover after the fact. All of that technology already exsist and a lot of saw it several years ago in Idaho in several different sizes and versions. |
|
| |
|
Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 618
Location: Issaquah WA, USA | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
I believe Bear has a good point about using unmanned mini-subs as robotic scouts. The Navy has been talking about this for some time. There are seven (I believe) choke points for maritime transit, and it is at these points that the AIP subs might have a role, because legs and extended time speed would not be an issue. It would require forward basing and probably some heavy lift ships available for long distance transiting (such as to and from a shipyard for overhaul/modernization.) The ideal AIP boat would be small, well armed but without reloads, and heavily automated to minimize crew size to my way of thinking. The nuc boats that we have are awesome fighting machines. They are also far too expensive to have enough at hand, and if we get into a shooting war, chances are good that we will loose one or more, because the bad guys always manage some unpleasant surprise. We just don't have enough subs nor the time to build more if and when the shooting starts. I wonder if it is feasible to develop a self contained small reactor of sufficient power output to keep the batteries charged and handle some of the hotel load in a AIP boat. The shielding weight issue probably would defeat the concept, I'm thinking. |
|
| |
|
COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
And why are nuc boats so expensive?? R&D plus making a killing on profit. A contract price is given for a boat and then come the cost over runs. BS hold the contractors to what they bid on. New developement, put it out for bids. This BS of $600 toilet seats is gouging us to death. |
|
| |
|
Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 618
Location: Issaquah WA, USA | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
I believe we could control those cost over-runs if the boats were built to spec without USN gererated change orders. That's not going to happen because of technical advances made during the build cycle. Going to COTS tech instead of special order equipment has substantially lowered the cost of outfitting one of these beauties. Do we want the best available at the time of the build, or build to the bottom line dollar when bid, that is the question to be answered. Those two dates are typically years apart. |
|
| |
|
Old Salt
Posts: 402
| Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
A good point was just made concerning the cost of fuel. That is something that I have found questionable concerning the surface fleet. Time was we had some vessels with nuclear power but they have all been scrapped. We now rely completely on petrolium to operate. One of the key advatages of an all nuke force was not having to keep a supply source at hand. As we proved in WWII, (and other wars), an enemy can cripple a fleet by atacking the supply line. The nukes eliminated this so instead of assigning elements to defend the supply line you could concentrate on the primary task of attacking the primary target. It also provided a lot more flexability in being able to change course and attack other targets as they presented themselves again without worry of the supply line. The only supplies needed would be food.
The cost factor is also presented in the hospital ships. We now have two. They are huge and can provide exelent care, but are two enough?
We simply have too many programs wanting the limited funds. If your group has a good lobbiest then you might get the money.
Like I said in a privious post. Manafacturing of parts now require less people. The idea was that eliminating people from the process would equate to lower prices for items produces. Instead the price has skyrocketed. (of course the salaries of the executives have also skyrocketed).
To me the whole problem is personal greed. We need more ships of all types. We need more planes. I also think we need more leaders with miliary expeirence.
One more thing, and you guys would know about this more than I. We are scrapping out the Los Angeles Class and the reason I read is the cost of re-fueling them. Is it really that expensive? I know most of the boats have quite a few years on them, but would it be cost effective to re-fuel them and use them alongside the newer boats. Like Rick posted they could be used as test beds for newer systems. We did that with the old deisel boats. I would think that newer electronics could be fitted to them.
Take Care,
Steve. |
|
| |
|
Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
PatH - 2009-06-03 11:49 AM
I wonder if it is feasible to develop a self contained small reactor of sufficient power output to keep the batteries charged and handle some of the hotel load in a AIP boat. The shielding weight issue probably would defeat the concept, I'm thinking.
How about the NR-1 reactor? It was smaller than the S3/4W plants in the Skate-class boats.
There was a news item a while back that the Russians were working on a hybrid boat with main diesel-electric propulsion and a miniature nuke plant to handle hotel loads.
|
|
| |
|
Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
PatH - 2009-06-03 3:48 PM
I believe we could control those cost over-runs if the boats were built to spec without USN gererated change orders. That's not going to happen because of technical advances made during the build cycle. Going to COTS tech instead of special order equipment has substantially lowered the cost of outfitting one of these beauties. Do we want the best available at the time of the build, or build to the bottom line dollar when bid, that is the question to be answered. Those two dates are typically years apart.
One of the keys to keeping costs in check is volume production. With a small production run of six-ten, the initial design and tooling costs are amortized over a small number of items, so the per-item cost is considerably more than if those initial costs are spread over, say thirty or forty units. Compare the cost of Sturgeon or even L.A. class boats (adjusted for inflation) to the cost of a Seawolf or Virginia-class boat. They are less, not just because of the state of the art equipment, but because we were building them on assembly lines like cars, and at several factories across the country, not just in one of two.
You also need a dependable production schedule. If you don't know how many boats you are going to be building, and the Congress only approves funding for a couple of boats at a time, how do you budget for long lead-time items? How do you maintain the skill-level of your work-force between boat starts and overhauls? That drives costs up, too.
The Congress doling out funding one or two boats a year and limiting production to one or two boats a year is a big part of the cost problem.
|
|
| |
|
Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: New Diesel Boats
Bear - 2009-06-03 9:29 AM
still doesnot solve the basic problem of the power to drive the warfare systems onboard.The emgergency diesel generator on a nuc boat with battery will only run about 1/4 of all systems for about two or three hours. No ventilation no "life support" and speed is limited to much less than WWII boats were able to do. And again running the diesel definitely makes any boat to noisy the great stealth is when on the super batteries not on the diesels
The diesel on a nuc boat is not designed to power the whole boat for any length of time - that is not it's function. It is ONLY there as a back-up until the reactor can be brought back on-line.
IF we were to build modern Diesel/AIP boats, would they have the same mission as the big nucs? I doubt it. Coastal defense and ASW training, but not the high-endurance, front-line war-fighting role of the Seawolfs and Virginias.
So why would they have to carry the same weapons & sensors as a big nuc? Doesn't make sense to me.
|
|
| |
New Diesel Boats
