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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2561
Location: Rapid City, SD | Subject: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
The lady who's proof-reading the BOOK has pointed out that I'm not consistent in the words that I capitalize. She's right. Most of the time I capitalize words such as Radio Room, Torpedo Room, and Conning Tower, and then when I come across the script already written by Elmer, I find that he did not, so I type his words the way he wrote them. Which one is correct?
Also, she tells me that I use too many commas. What's the 'comma rule'?
All help appreciated.
Cora |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2540
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
Corabelle - 2009-08-03 4:38 PMThe lady who is proof-reading the BOOK, has pointed out that I'm not consistent in the words that I capitalize. She's right. Most of the time, I capitalize words such as Radio Room, Torpedo Room and Conning Tower. Then when I come across the script already written by Elmer, I find that he did not use caps, I type his words the way he wrote them. Which one is correct?Also, she tells me that I use too many commas. What's the 'comma rule'?All help appreciated.Cora
Cora, I am not English teacher, but I took your own paragraph here, and tried to show you what I think it should look like when it is written. I maybe incorrect, but only trying to help. I did a bit of proofreading of this paragraph, and this not
being on paper, hope you will see the corrections I tried to make to it. As far as capitalization of words, I don't think
there is a rule. Did the proofreader tell you that the way you had written it, was incorrect???
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2672
Location: New Jersey | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
Cora, why don't you google the question. Here is what I got when I googled; the rule for use of comma...try it it's easy as hell....
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2253
Location: Foothills of the Ozarks | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
Corabelle - 2009-08-03 4:38 PM
The lady who's proof-reading the BOOK has pointed out that I'm not consistent in the words that I capitalize. She's right. Most of the time I capitalize words such as Radio Room, Torpedo Room, and Conning Tower, and then when I come across the script already written by Elmer, I find that he did not, so I type his words the way he wrote them. Which one is correct?
Also, she tells me that I use too many commas. What's the 'comma rule'?
All help appreciated.
Cora
Tell her that's the editors job; you need to get your thoughts and Elmer's on paper and let the editor do the nit picking.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
I side with letting the editor continue to bitch but tell her that she should do that. However, in English class, we were told the bible for that was "The Elements of Style" by Strunk and White, I think. Title is correct....not sure about the atuhors.....not a large book....polly cheap on ebay or amazon.
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Old Salt
Posts: 419
Location: Anchorage, Alaska | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
Stoops - 2009-08-03 2:57 PMI side with letting the editor continue to bitch but tell her that she should do that. However, in English class, we were told the bible for that was "The Elements of Style" by Strunk and White, I think. Title is correct....not sure about the atuhors.....not a large book....polly cheap on ebay or amazon.
You got it right.
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2253
Location: Foothills of the Ozarks | Subject: nit picking; something I'm good at
proof readers read for spelling and syntax; editors read for clarity of thought and if you write for McManus like I have done on two occasions, brevity. His advice to me, and he is the professional, is "put it on paper so I understand it, I'll do the editing"
So, Cora; put it down on paper so it makes sense and let the editor make the corrections that make it clear to the reader.
Just my 2 cents. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2561
Location: Rapid City, SD | Subject: Joe and Doc. What about capitalizing names of places; re: Conning Tower, etc.?
I printed out the url (am I saying that right?) And Doc, I asked this friend of mine to proof read manuscript for me. She's doing it as a favor to me.
Doc: You're a professional writer? How do you get an editor to look at a manuscript?
Cora |
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Old Salt
Posts: 489
Location: San Freakcisco CA area | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
The style manuals (GPO, University of Chicago, etc) that I've seen reserve capitalization to proper nouns and the first word of a sentence. One could possibly argue that Control Room or Forward Torpedo Room are proper nouns but I really don't think so ... BUT -- in every Navy manual that I've ever seen, the names of specific shipboard compartments are always capitalized - perhaps that is simply the Navy way ... but it sure does make it easier to pick out specific mentions of a compartment. I've always capitalized them. In one sense, Crew's Mess and dining room are essentially equivalent terms - yet we don't capitalize "dining room," so I have to conclude it is simply the difference between civilian and US&N styles. As for commas, the rules vary all over the place, depending upon which style manual you look at. Modern useage tends to allow commas as "go slow" signs as well as the traditional high school grammar 101 use of setting off clauses. The universal no-no remains, however. Do not use commas as splices to connect two sentences that are stand-alone. [EXAMPLE OF COMMA SPLICE] The universal no-no remains, however, do not use commas as splices to connect two sentences that are stand-alone. Unalerted, most folks wouldn't catch the difference. When treating comma useage, one cannot go by what any particular newspaper uses as its style manual because the next newspaper uses a different style manual. Ditto high school and college classes -- A friend took a creative writing class at the local community college and he was "old school" almost to the point of using Spencerian script. Thus, when the instructor told the class "if a comma adds clarity, use it - and if it doesn't, don't," he struggled with that one. But that is the rule I've been follwing for some years now. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2253
Location: Foothills of the Ozarks | Subject: RE: Joe and Doc. What about capitalizing names of places; re: Conning Tower, etc.?
Corabelle - 2009-08-03 11:14 PM
I printed out the url (am I saying that right?) And Doc, I asked this friend of mine to proof read manuscript for me. She's doing it as a favor to me.
Doc: You're a professional writer? How do you get an editor to look at a manuscript?
Cora
I agree with Bill (SOB) proper compartment names are generally capitalized whereas dining room, which is generic, would not be. The exception might be "Crews Dining Room".
I've never written a book so I'm not sure how you get a manuscript to an editor. My guess is that you submit the manuscript to a publisher and if they like what they read then it gets assigned; then you have to get the whole "Literary Agent" thing going.
My experience has only been submitting articles for publication in the newspaper and that was by request; and, I was honored to do it.
"Did I get all the commas in the right place?"
Edited by Doc Gardner 2009-08-04 4:25 AM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1247
Location: Rockingham Western Australia | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
Cora I dont no nuffin bout punkuatin but mebee this will help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7L02tCNi0I&feature=related |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2672
Location: New Jersey | Subject: RE: Joe and Doc. What about capitalizing names of places; re: Conning Tower, etc.?
Cora, the two examples I found in sub books, O'Kane's, Clear The Bridge and Johnson's Silent Steel did not capitalize the words forward torpedo room or forward engine room.
Joe
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2540
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY | Subject: RE: Joe and Doc. What about capitalizing names of places; re: Conning Tower, etc.?
Ya know what Cora...you should write it just the way Elmer wrote it. Maybe it wouldn't be "grammatically or punctuationally correct"...but it's HIS WORDS that are being written by you. And I think that is what counts.
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Senior Crew
Posts: 141
Location: Seattle, WA | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
Cora,
For capitalization, the general rule of thumb I use is from the Chicago Manual of Style and basically states that most publishers prefer to minimize the use of capitalization in documents. I usually only use capitalization if I am trying to set apart the term I am capitalizing. However, I think that consistency is the most important aspect of any document. So, you should either use capitals throughout or not, but mixing them only confuses the readers.
For commas, there are a handful of rules that are used. I would say the general advice you’ve gotten so far is pretty good. You may want to go to your local library and see if they have a copy of any of the various style books that are out there (ask your reference librarian, they are usually very helpful). Also, most word processor applications have a decent grammar checking feature. You can enable it and get a general idea if you are using too many commas.
I hope that helps.
Dave |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2561
Location: Rapid City, SD | Subject: IPOD, does your wife appreciate you?
If you don't have a wife, why don't you make a trip to the bread basket of the U.S.? Or, would that be Bread Basket?
I rethunk my first question. If you do have a wife, bring her along.
Cora |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1247
Location: Rockingham Western Australia | Subject: RE: IPOD, does your wife appreciate you?
Yup got me one of those, names Alison had her for 26 years and am thinking of keeping her!
We have every intention of coming to visit just need that kick start to get it rolling. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: IPOD, does your wife appreciate you?
What he means, Cora, is he has to get up off his cheap arse and spend some money.  POD's wife Alison is a very sweet woman. She's been trying to get Blue matched up with shielas there in Oz but I think his reputation of his appetite is know all over the continent. |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1323
Location: Oxnard, CA | Subject: RE: IPOD, does your wife appreciate you?
Corabelle - 2009-08-04 10:05 PM
If you don't have a wife, why don't you make a trip to the bread basket of the U.S.? Or, would that be Bread Basket?
I rethunk my first question. If you do have a wife, bring her along.
Cora
I was always taught to capitalize SPECIFIC person, place or thing. Therefore bread basket would not be capitalized, but Bread Basket of the United States would be.
I watch people here on the BBSs and chuckle how some write. One guy doesn't put a space after any punctuation,and just keeps on typing.It doesn't matter what the punctuation.
Others use a comma as a breathing space. Take a long sentence and read it out loud. When you run out of breath, put in a comma.
I know, in Russian, commas, are used much, much, more often than, say, in English, or other languages. But then again Russian is a highly inflected language, and you can pass a lot of information with fewer words.
"Be happy in your work." (Sessue Hayakawa as Col. Saito, in Bridge on the River Kwai.)
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Mess cooking
Posts: 11
Location: New York, NY | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
Doc Gardner - 2009-08-02 6:42 PM
]
Tell her that's the editors job; you need to get your thoughts and Elmer's on paper and let the editor do the nit picking.
Works for me. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
Being the absolute world's worst at proper anything grammatical and the all time UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA "KING OF THE RUN-ON SENTENCE" (Dr. Noland English Dept.)....not knowing how to divide my text into paragraphs...not giving a damn about correct spelling, rules of punctuation....or capitalization. I say, "Let people who care...DO IT". Cora, To me the whole idea behind the written word, is simply communication....The written word replaced drawing pictures in the dirt...."One giant leap for mankind" (My brother Neil Armstrong said that on a trip he took once)....Corabelle, I have NEVER had difficulty understanding ANYTHING you have ever written....You pass the "easily understood communication test."....everything else is "unnecessary bolt on BS" You're a free spirit and not anchored to the regulated world where folks with nothing better to do, monkey around in their boring as hell world of grammatical rules...regulations percolated up in Ivy League institutions to saddle break students and gentle them to the slow trot of constraint and restraint. I have always kicked out of the traces and rambled all over hell and half Georgia, thumbing my nose at conventional "ring the bell at the end of the rat maze" living....Just cut the barbwire and take off. Put it down like Elmer wrote it...that flinty lipped, shrew....with the eye shade and glasses with lenses at thick as the bottom of a Ne-Hi bottle, didn't ride submarines....Hell, probably the riskiest thing the poor gal ever did was spend a blissful hour or two in the back seat of Hector Billingsly's 57 Chevy at the Rainbow's End Drive In...while Elmer was counting depth charges being rolled off the stern of a Jap can and sitting in the dark listening to guage faces shatter. Write it just the way Elmer lived it and wrote it...He was there...and where he was, no sonuvabitch gave a damn about red checkmarks that are the stock-in-trade of English teachers, College professors and Newspaper editors...If the exact words of a courageous American dues payer don't fit the idea of some "safe at home" beneficiary of that sacrifice and bravery....to hell with them. They can get in that line full of meek folks standing around waiting to inherit the earth....Me, I want to hear the direct words of the adventurous rascal who was there. Darling, leave the hide, hair and horns on it...don't peel any of the bark off...and who cares if tubes forward is called The Forward Torpedo Room or the forward torpedo room?....the recipients of any ordinance delivered from tubes forward sure as hell didn't care whether or not it was capitalized....the bastards were too busy trying to find an empty seat in a life boat. Write about life as it was lived....Egyptian Heirogliphics and the stuff written on the back of a truck stop toilet stall door become effective communication conveying intended thoughts, without the added burden of critical comment. Some people actually get their jollies moving punctuation marks around, de-capitalizing stuff and eliminating things they don't know a g--damn thing about....and many times their well intended effort, takes away the personal imprint of the rapscallion who actually lived it...the man who sweat his way through the event....only to have Gladys McMurphy twist his words into a more socially acceptable and academically palatable porridge of homogenized horse manure. Corabelle, Elmer isn't here to defend his composition....In my world nobody has the right to diddle around and alter any of his words, punctuation or composition. I know that you can be "tougher than a rat tail file" when you believe in something...do it for your courageous brother. Tell em to pack sand. Respectfully and in admiration for what you are doing for a true American dues payer. DEX |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 2561
Location: Rapid City, SD | Subject: Dex
You don't think the Japs cared whether Forwarad Torpedo Room was capitalized or not? That's funny. I can just see them saying to each other, "You thinkee that torpedo that just killed us came from a capitalized room?" "Yessee. If it wasn't captalized, it won't hurt so muchee, will it?" Quit trying, Cora, you can't write humor like Dex. Besides, that's not how Japenese people talked.
I have got a pretty full Thursday and Friday, but (I know, I'm terrible) would you, once more post your phone number? I promise I'll write it down this time. Don't pick on my friend. It was me who asked her to check grammar and punctuation for me. She's doing me a favor. And - I'm still toying with the idea of trying to sell the book. When I get closer to the finish line, I will be asking for help on publishing. I once asked Elmer how many copies he wanted. He said, "Well, I've got two children and two grandchildren - that's four - then one copy for me, so five for me, I guess." As far as he was concerned, it was just a part of his biography that he wanted to share with his family. Since there weren't too many wartime sub stories written by enlisted men, I thought it maybe had a larger-than-immediate-family potential.
I'm sure I told the story about talking to the published author about it. I went to a speech -seminar-whatever given by a published fiction author. I won one of his books, and during the break, I took it up to have him sign it. This was after Elmer died. I told him my sad story about the book my brother was writing, and my feeling that it was going to be forever unfinished. He thought for a brief moment, and said, "Keep writing it in your brother's voice, just like he was still talking."
During the last conversation that I had with Elmer, he told me that I was going to have to finish the book without him. Premonition? I don't know. I replied, "I can't do it. I've got all the official patrol reports, but I don't have your experiences." He answered, "Then I guess it will be an unfinished book." He had shingles at the time he died, and he was sick, and apparently just worn out. We don't know exactly when he died, or what killed him. His daughter found him dead on Sunday after the last people to see him alive had seen him walking around in his yard on Thursday. He fell, but didn't die immediately, because he had pulled some coats down off a rack to cover his feet.
Enough! Gotta quit rehashing.
Thanks, Dex
Cora
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 892
Location: Palo Pinto County, Texas | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
Cora,
I appreciate your dilemma, but having read this entire string, I see two posts that really answer your query. The one way up the string from xmm2ss, an Editor of the New York Post and the last one from Dex. Go for it & let us know when it's available for purchase.
Roy
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: Questions on grammar and punctuation.
Corabelle, My phone number is (703) 971-3092....Here's the deal....If I'm home I answer it. I don't duck phone calls...I don't owe anyone any money, pay all my bills on time and if I got a phone call from some irate father with a pregnant daughter, it would be a wrong number call. I don't know how to retrieve voice mail and don't want anyone to explain it to me....Don't need to waste a big chunk of my life listening to a litiny of recorded messages everytime I return home. Nobody had phones that took pictures, told time, sent typed out messages, tracked appointments, took messages in the 1940's and we all did just fine. If I don't answer, I'm out....just keep calling, I'm never away long. Would love to have an opportunity to talk to you. Really admire what you're doing. What a wonderful thing to put in the hands of Elmer's downline generations. I believe that true immortality rests in the hearts of those who actually knew the person...and Elmer will be able to live on (Thanks to what you are doing) in his own words....his own unaltered words. What a gift. I can think of no other expression of a sister's love that could surpass what you are doing. If you publish the book for sale, please put me down for 3 (three) copies. Corabelle...The more I think about what you are doing, the more powerful my respect and admiration. DEX |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 602
Location: Visalia, Ca. | Subject: RE: Publishing Elmer's memoirs
Cora:
I have several books on my shelf, written by friends and shipmates, that were published by small-press operators or "Publish-on-Demand" publishers. They help you with cover art and final editing, and can either print small batches, or print them "on-demand" as you get orders for them.
When you are ready, sing out. We'll point you in the right direction. |
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Questions on grammar and punctuation.
