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Master and Commander
Posts: 1431
| Subject: The trouble with socialism
Sooner or later they are gonna run out of everyone elses money!!!   |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1455
| Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
When that happens it's called communism. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden and Denmark) are basically socialist nations. In all categories except military spending levels, their quality of life, health of their population, damn near non-existent crime rate, socialized medical programs, individual weath, per capita property ownership, civility to one-another, nationalized religion in Norway (king is head of both the state and the church, DEN NORSKE KIRKKEN the Norwegian Church...Ordained Clerics are on the civil list and perform diplomatic functions such as recording foriegn births of Norwegian citizens abroad to establish citizenship, issue visas, passports and certificates of military service. ALL Norwegian males are required to serve two years in uniform, to include handicapped lads who can perform some useful purpose. Norwegians go our Second Ammendment one better, tyhey are REQUIRED to take rifle marksmanship in school and own a rifle chambered for the NATO standard round. The purpose is to prevent an invading army walkover like April of 1940. They are the most healthy and literate people, other than Icelanders, on earth. Their country is clean, devoid of outdoor advertising, slums and bums. They are primarily honest, law abiding citizens and their government is universally respected, conducts political business in a civil adult fashion and they love their royal family. Narcotics has gotten a foothold in Scandinavia but traffickers are dealt with far harsher than here. Unlike here...They have one of the most formiable merchant marine fleets in the world....welcome in all world ports. They serve in international peace keeping forces, far beyond any other nations per capita participation. In ALL categories of quality of life measurement they rank well above the United States and have a VERY trouble free economy, except where they got linked with our out-of-control investment stupidity. They nationalized their North Sea oil for the benefit of all Norwegians. They don't have a "We're number ONE" mentality, they don't permit economic exploitation of their citizens. U.S. pharmacuticals cost about one-third of what they cost here...because THEY set the rate of what their government is willing to pay and lets the worldwide drug manufacturing market meet it or be prohibited from selling their product in Norway. They hold very strong views on torture and a national abhorance of it. After WWII they turned ALL of the Nazi Gestapo headquarters, concentration camps and torture sites into memorials to the killed and abused. I visited the one at Kristiansand, very graphic and it left some pretty nasty images in my mind. They had a waterboarding chamber with a female mannequin strapped down on it....Waterboarding and our embrace of it was the reason they prohibited their deployed from serving under U.S. field command. Personal HONOR and patriotic dedication (no mercenaries or contract fighters in Norsk forces) are the hallmarks of Norwegian forces. They are proud of their history and record...except for how ill prepared they were for the Nazi invasion. They are a clean people...they control their borders....prostitution is not a corrupt, criminal controlled underground industry...because It's a legitiment tax paying profession, medically controlled and openly available. There is a low incidence of AIDs, VD and other sexually transmitted desease because it is regulated and there are damn near NO SEX CRIMES committed there. They love sports and respect their sports personalies...In Norway if you get caught using "performance enhancing substances" you are banned from ALL professional sports for life...no appeal, no mercy, no further contact. Because all Norwegians have guns and know how to use them...you have to be damn good to compete for the right to become a licensed hunter and authorized by the Norwegian government to take game. They are a good people, who take care of their own, stay the hell out of the headlines, do good things and are very proud of their National Government's involvement in what they laughingly call "Cradle to Grave Nanny-ism"...and above all they are a HAPPY people and rarely angry...a happy responsible people, who didn't allow their government to borrow obscene amounts of money from China to spend and put their butts in hock for several generations. You may not like "socialism", may feel that it robs individual initiative but little Norway revels in it and by any calculation their quality of life is far better than our population enjoys. One thing Norwegians have a problem figuring out..."You are the world's breadbasket...the greatest food exporter in the world...Knowing that, How can little children go to bed hungry and malnutricion be such a problem with your poor?" And they say what is Medicare and Medicaid, Social Security and your food stamp program if not socialism? You have socialism, you just don't run it worth a damn...You'd like it if you ever got the greed, fraud, phony claimants, skimming and incompetent people out of it." No Norwegian apologies for the way his country takes care of its' old, infirm, less fortunate and helps out other nations in need." My dear bride of 40 years gave me the gift of knowing and loving the wonderful Norwegian people and to know that they don't deserve to have their way of life trashed...Unlike the American people, they don't try to influence you to change your system or bankrupt themselves trying to impose their lifestyle, politics and governmental system on others...They keep their nose out of the national business of others...No budget item for NATION BULDING, IRAQI RECONSTRUCTION CONTRACTING...Their view, no one respects a fat cat giving handouts or things they get for free...they respect things accomplished by their own effort, hard work and national commitment.DEX |
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Old Salt
Posts: 336
| Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
Thanks for the sanity check, Dex. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
By the way, the crack about "sooner or later they run out of money"...You hear of Norway, Denmark, Sweden or Finland running out of money lately? Huh....Actually the Norwegians are bloody sick and tired of us tin cupping them for war funds...The crack in Norway was "Condeleeza Rice needs to apply for a whores license" she's constantly trying to sell herself for more Norwegian kroner. Get this straight...Norwegians and other Scandinavian countries aren't dealing with sub-prime mortage problems, their industry isn't fleeing their nation, they are collapsing under hellish debt load, they aren't struggling to pay just the interest on the ever climbing Chinese debt, their citizens aren't going bankrupt from medical expenses....They have the highest level of per-capita home ownership in the world, the most educated population (all education to include university studies costs nothing in Norway) They continually run budget surpluses thanks to what they recognize is an exhaustable resource in their North Sea oil reserves...so they manage their national oil profits in investing them and only using the generated interest. I ask, what's this "Sooner or later they run out of money"? They aren't out hawking money for clunkers, stimulous packages, bailouts for irresponsible corporations, sell companies to China, Italy, Pakistan and God knows who else, using taxpayer money to backroll multi-million dollar bonuses for guys who ran their corporate ships on the rocks.....The socialist nations are sitting back laughing their asses off watching us ass kiss them for funds just to pay the bloody interest on the debt we've run up pouring money we didn't have down the great Mid-East rathole in the past nine years. Tell me who, under what system "Sooner or later they run out of money." currently applies to? My brother-in-law wonders how the Great Nation he loved as a young man and who whipped Italy Germany and Japan and liberated his country and had this tremendous Cold War nuclear deterent capability has been brought to it's knees by a pipsqueek bunch of raggedy bastards operating out of caves in the mountains of Northern Pakistan and has let the little bastards bankrupt us like they did Russia...and has been reduced to begger status going around the world like a "drunk begging for money for another drink." I don't get that crack "Sooner or later they run out of money" thing, will you tell me how it applies to the socialistic systems of the Scandinavian nations? My bride didn't grow up in and love her country only to have you talk of what a bunch of politically irresponsible idiots they are. Physician heal thyself...DEX |
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Old Salt
Posts: 419
Location: Anchorage, Alaska | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
Amen, Brother DEX.
If we Americans could take our jingoistic blinders off every now and then we might find valuable lessons to learn from other countries.
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
You're right Park...Personally I know the Norwegian socialism wouldn't work here. Not a snowball's chance in hell. First a lot of things in socialism eliminate "choice" you don't get to choose, especially in medical decisions such as treatment facility, doctor...length of hospital stay etc, they tax your butt off when you buy imported products such as cars, TV's and major appliances. But oddly enough with the high tax rate, nobody is poor, their are no bag ladies or bums sleeping in cardboard boxes. There's welfare, but to get it, the state requires you to work on state supervised projects until either you or the state finds you work. Education is free BUT you must prove yourself worthy of matriculation to the next level by state testing and panel interviews. If you can't cut it and your folks can afford it, you can go to another country, frequently the United States and pay for a college education. My wife completed her masters at no cost to her or her family. Frequently because of the expense of buying items in quantities we take for granted, you have to buy them in open box quantities...Items I remember being sold individually were cigarettes, little Hershey candies and women's sanitary products pads and tampons. It was not uncommon to see a sales clerk open a glass case, remove three tampons and wrap them in white tissue and hand them to a lady who put them in her purse, with a "Takk,Takk". There was only one church...it was tax supported and kept all the vital statistics birth, deaths, marriages and issued work permits, visas and travel permits. There were things you couldn't get because they were two damn expensive Oranges, Coca-Cola and Heinz 57 sauce....But, because of the nationalization of things like the nationwide railroad system, you could do thing like give a half liter of blood and get a pass good for riding the train anywhere in Norway for a month. I missed being able to choose things like doctors and owning a bloody car. But public transportation was great and once you got used to cross country skiing (which got you up from off your butt and out doing good stuff for your body and general health) you were able to get around OK...Norway sure as hell isn't the Garden of Eden...but the living is comfortable and the people are wonderful. DEXS |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
A Democracy requires an educated, enlightened population for it to work. That is one reason why it won't work in countries that have traditionally been ruled by Dictators and other despotic systems, the population must be able to make intelligent, informed decisions. The US used to be a beacon of Democracy, exemplifing everything that is good about the Democratic form of government. But lately that enlightenment
has eroded into rumors, propaganda and malicious lies. Talk about "Death squads", Government take-over of the health system, and the end of Democracy as we know it are examples . It is frightening that so many people really belive that trash.
If you read history of Hitlers take over in Germany in the mid '30's you will find that he sent his "brown-shirts" to all polital meetings and rallies to disrupt and shout down voices of reason and civility. Are we heading in the same direction???
The great strength of our Demoracy has been our ability to compromise. Have we lost that? It appears we have. I have said before that if one political party proposed a bill that stated that "henceforth and forever more the sun shall rise in the east and set in the west", that the other party would vote it down to the man.
We must find a way to return to a climate of political compitition with comprimise. We are all good people, Democrat and Republican. There are few problems that we cannot solve if we work together. The present condition of a vitriolic and poisionous politics simply cannot continue.
Sorry for the politican rant, Don, but I just had to get this off my chest.
Steamboat sends |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
A college professor once told me "We are all Socialist when we go to the bathroom".
Steamboat sends |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
Dex, with all in what you say it would seem people would be climbing over each other to migrate to Norway, especially those that live in not so good countries nearby. What are the restrictions in migratation to Norway? |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 561
| Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
What happened to 'No Politics' on this board??????
This is the second string in two days.
T.Spoon, DBF |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
Bermuda and Norway are the tougest countries to imigrate to. Easy to visit but they are pretty much a closed society and have taken a real lesson from our open border policy. They also know everything about their citizens (something we would never permit...especially their open medical record keeping.) and it is very difficult with all the government collected info and government required authorizations for various social systems for an illegal immigrant to hide and survive. And, they (the Norwegian people) feel a civic responsibility to keep the system pure for the use of the deserving. Wefare cheating, claim fraud and claiming unearned benefits is not the Norwegian way and they won't tolerate it and would turn anyone in who was attempting to game the system. They don't have folks climbing fences to get in...most of the country is bordered by icy sea coast and the rest by Sweden...they don't have countries on their borders filled with semi-literate unskilled impoverished have-nots climbing over each other to get in and grab all the social benefits and freebies they can get their hands on. That's just a fact. DEX |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1405
Location: Houston, TX (Best state in the US) | Subject: Norway
Was never assigned to ekofisk, but had a lot of friends that were. They described their time in Norway as being very pleasant, but they said you NEVER EVER want to get caught driving under the influence. |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: T-Spoon, What did you want us to do, swallow the hooey?
What would you have us do Sir, When a post reading THE TROUBLE WITH SIOCIALISM is posted by a fellow who lives in a country living on the handouts of countries all over the world that has to borrow obscene amounts of hard earned foriegn funds to keep afloat and may in a very short time experience national inflation on par with prewar Germany and 1970's Brazil and Argentina. Put simply. "The trouble with socialism" is that they are getting fed up with America putting its' hands in other nations pockets and conceding its' national reputation and soverenty into the hands of China....with our debt and our inability to service our obligations we are heading rapidly to the level of post Afghanistan Soviet Republics....Is part of the problem with socialism that they are not in over their heads in debt to the folks supplying sophisticated weaponry to our enemies that they use to kill our troops. Do you actually think Santas Elves are turning out AK-47's and sophisticated remotely detonated roadside personnel mangeling ordinance? Do you think we WANTED to sell out our loyal ally Nationalist China (Taiwan/Formosa) to the communists...or had to do it to feed our war effort? Sure we had corporations who made a killing on no-bid contracts for war materials but that was a drop in the bucket compared to what the Chinese got out of us. They are our most favored trading partner. Go into a hardware store, sporting goods store, ladies clothing store and try to find anything made in the USA...Lots of luck. What we need to do is stop trashing other systems and rebuild the one we have, but whatever we do will have to be done on other peoples money and restored faith in the integrity of this nation. DEX |
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 3202
Location: Alexandria, Virginia | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
Stoops, Simple system..."Drive Drunk Go To Prison"...no exceptions...no lawyers specializing in getting people off DUI charges. You don't get a trail, you get a hearing to get your report to prison date. The code word is "I was vacationing in the South of Spain." translated, my butt was in the drunks' pokey for six months". They are a non-compromising country. After WWII Truman requesteed on behalf of the United Nations Nuremberg Tribunal that Norway turn over her "war criminals" to be tried under the new concept of "crimes against humanity". King Haakon replied that,"Mother Norway would carry out her own trash" By the time the Nuremberg Tribunal had sorted out their procedural compromises with the four major allies...Norway had tried a executed Quisling, his family, and truckloads of other sonuvabitches, that everyone knew deserved it...They did it publicly without review or remorse. They lined them up against a wall and shot them for several weeks...In Arne Linginsen's words,"We didn't want to feed the worthless scum any longer than we had to...Funny thing, you shoot em and they stop eating." No T-Spoon, they understand right and wrong and in Norway "wrong" gets expensive fast. That's why they don't need a lot of police and there's not a lot of criminal activity, crooks prefer to go to more lieinent countries rather than face the stern Norwegian criminal prosecution system. If you are a U.S. citizen and tourist and you get caught, you too will go to the south of Spain for a six moths vacation....All the U.S. Embassy in Oslo will say is try to make it as pleasant as possible and don't call us, we can't do a thing. Needless to say DRUNK DRIVING IS NOT A PROBLEM IN NORWAY. DEX |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 811
Location: NW Connecticut | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
My Son has spent much time in North Norway working with their Marine Jagers..( bad ass dudes) keeping an eye on Ivan across the straights.. He loves the people and the culture and has said like DEX did that most there seem to be very happy and healthy. But he did say like Japan and other Countries they are very Homogeneous lot and don't have a problem with people crashing down their borders .. Unless of course its Ivan.. But the US and GB has spent Trillions of dollars on providing these lovely Countries with security since 1945.. I can only assume that it's easier to provide paradise and great standards of living when Uncle Sam and NATO are providing the opportunity to do so. Yup they're following the Socialism agenda of allowing someone else to do the work for them.. I wonder if Ivan was allowed to impose their brand of Socialism if we would be telling the same story. They're Smart maybe we can get a deal like that.
It seems this fact is all too often overlooked when we admire these Countries standards of living.. BTW I don't see anything political in this tread..
For someone who loves his WW2 history DEX I am surprised that you haven't brought up Norway, and Denmark's less than glorious performance as well as their split personality's during that War.. You were very safe there as long as you were not a Jew or a anti Nazis.. Yes Norway had a underground resistance but they did not represent anywhere near the majority.. The resistance heros in occupied Europe were all in Poland and Bella Russia..They have worked hard covering this dark period up..but historians and those who choose the truth won't allow the cover up. Yes yes I know how the glorious " patriots" rose up in 1943 after the Nazis pulled out and left the pro Nazis government's in place there to their fates.. .such brave men they were .
Edited by Smiley 2009-08-28 2:14 PM
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 561
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No Dex. I expect folks to follow the rules of the guy who foots the bill for this playground. But that is evidently something you and a few others choose to ignore.
Twice in one week you have led the charge of "I don't care what your rules are, I will do it my way, screw you".
A shipmate we can all count on to do what is right, you dex are not.
T.Spoon, DBF |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: T-Spoon.....
....Mate, Don has allowed political posts as long as they don't turn nasty.
Getting emotional and hitting the man instead of the subject is the type of thing Don doesn't like.
That's the rules....as I understand it to be.
Blue *_* |
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Master and Commander
Posts: 2357
| Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
This whole thread has been very interesting.....how 100% factual is up to debate.
But like any country in the world, there is no perfect system or people.
I recall Dex stating years ago on Olgoat's BBS that 'The USA was the Greatest Nation in the world'.....and I had issues with that comment.
For the record, I don't believe it to be Australia either. What Dex has said in this current thread about the USA to a degree is what Australia is too.....except I don't know of any Prime Mortgage issues here until they crap hit the fan in the USA and then of course the rest fo the world had to suffer in varying degrees for your sins. "America coughs, we catch the cold"
I actually like a hell of a lot about the USA.....if it wasn't for my kids, I would have moved by now to be with Kathy. I quite like the boondocks of Illinois where she lives, equally, I loved my time everywhere I went back in 2004 and subsequent trips. There are of course, things I don't like, we all know whatthat is and I won't be discussing that here because there really is no point in it.
Hell, if you guys played Aussie Rules Football, it might even be 'Paradise' 
Don's rule was politics allowed as long as no one slagged a person off...lets keep it that way people!
Blue *_* |
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Great Sage of the Sea
Posts: 561
| Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
The rules, as posted at the top:
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Submarine Discussion
Limited as much as possible to submarine-related topics. No politics or religion, etc. and keep it clean.
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trouble with threads like this is they will drift off course and step on someones toes.
Best way is to follow the posted rules.
T.Spoon, DBF
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COMSUBBBS
Posts: 6180
Location: Summerville, SC | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
actually like a hell of a lot about the USA.....if it wasn't for my kids, I would have moved by now
I've felt the same with Oz. I guess the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
Edited by Ralph Luther 2009-08-28 4:31 PM
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Master and Commander
Posts: 1814
Location: Boydton, Virginia | Subject: RE: The trouble with socialism
Blue, I was born and raised in the green, lush Eastern US. In 1974 I moved to Eastern Oregon (dry side of the Cascades.) Although I instantly fell in love with the magnificant beauty of the Pacific Northwest, I sorely missed green trees, grass, and summer thunderstorms. To put it simply, after a certain age we are a product of the area where we grow up, and it is very hard to readjust to different climates, peoples and customs. Not that it cannot be done, but it is hard. Just something to think about.
Steamboat sends |
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The trouble with socialism
