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At random: USS SKATE and USS SEADRAGON, after affecting a historic rendezvous under the ice, surfaced together at the North Pole through an opening in the ice on August 1962. What really happened: We didn't surface together, Skate surfaced first. Then we (Seadragon) fired yellow flares forward and aft so Skate could tell us how we were lined up. Remember, under-ice was primitive in these days. Skate called back down rapidly that one flare surfaced on her starboard side and the other to port. She requested we reposition before vertical surfacing. We did. - Coyote (Owen Carlson)
HELP!!!!
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Gil
Posted 2009-10-23 11:59 AM (#31725)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1606

Subject: HELP!!!!

To All:
I posted this video a while ago and I am now more confused than usual.
I got a hold of the Pickerel's former supply officer Ensign Brown from 1968.  He's now Retired Commander Brown, who  filled me in on a few things.  The DE we sunk was misidentified on the video - it was actually  the USS Fessenden and Mr. Brown besides taking the periscope shots of the sinking was invited years ago to speak at a Fessenden reunion.
 
My confusion is in the beginning of the tape where the boat is running on the surface about 1:50. Mr. Brown indicated to me that Guppy III's were never outfitted with deck guns and felt since the Pickerel was built in 1949 it may have never had a deck gun. 
That sure looks like a deck gun to me and it sure appears to be firing.  I know we didn't have a deck gun in '67 or '68.  Can anybody shed some light on this?

http://myronhoward.name/submarines/usspickerelwespac.wmv
PS - Myron - your inbox is full.


Edited by Gil 2009-10-23 12:05 PM
Ric
Posted 2009-10-23 1:21 PM (#31726 - in reply to #31725)


Plankowner

Posts: 9165

Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map.
Subject: RE: HELP!!!!

According to Jim Christleys' book, the Tench class were to have deck guns plus 40mm & 20mm. I know boats that did have them, many carried them through Korea. Pickerel being layed down in 1944 but commissioned in 1949 might have had one.
PatH
Posted 2009-10-23 1:29 PM (#31727 - in reply to #31725)


Great Sage of the Sea

Posts: 618

Location: Issaquah WA, USA
Subject: RE: HELP!!!!

Many of the San Diego boats going to the Gulf of Tonkin were retrofitted with 30 and 50 cal machine gun mounts in the mid 60s.  In 1964 USS Diodon, for example, had gun ports installed port and starboard in the midlevel deck of the northern sail, with rectangular doors that would open.

Probably Pickerel received one of those informal upgun mods as well.

Bob M
Posted 2009-10-23 1:50 PM (#31729 - in reply to #31725)
Crew

Posts: 57

Subject: RE: HELP!!!!

In looking at the picture closely, it looks like they had a modified torpedo king post which could be installed in the king post socket and a 20 mm gun installed on it. Don't know for sure but that's my best guess.

Bob M
PatH
Posted 2009-10-23 2:40 PM (#31730 - in reply to #31727)


Great Sage of the Sea

Posts: 618

Location: Issaquah WA, USA
Subject: RE: HELP!!!!

I asked my ex-Army son to take a look.  He said it is a "Ma Deuce", a 50 cal machine gun.
Bob M
Posted 2009-10-23 3:15 PM (#31731 - in reply to #31725)
Crew

Posts: 57

Subject: RE: HELP!!!!

Hi Pat

Probably is a M-2. The overall gun length looked longer than 55 inches but that might be my optics looking at the narrower deck on the boat.

Bob M
SOB490
Posted 2009-10-23 5:05 PM (#31736 - in reply to #31725)


Old Salt

Posts: 489

Location: San Freakcisco CA area
Subject: RE: HELP!!!!

I can point to many significant details that are simply incorrect when it comes to information about the TENCH class. CDR John Alden's The Fleet Submarine in the US Navy is one of the more authorative and correct sources for basic information. But it also has some errors.

In working with PAMPANITO (a BALAO boat), we have found that the most reliable source of information comes from two sources - 1) new construction and post-overhaul shipyard photography; and 2) the war patrol reports that detailed modifications, new equipment, major repairs, etc. between war patrols.

TENCH boats came in near the end of WWII (did you know, for example, that 2 different TENCH boats were to bear the name WAHOO but never got built?) -- and the class history is pretty well summarized by Alden -- some were actually completed, some were under construction and broken up on the ways, some were under construction (including PICKEREL and VOLADOR), had construction stopped shortly after WWII ended, then completed in 1948 or 1949 as GUPPY-Is or IIs.

In a bunch of cases, entire contracts and building orders were cancelled - which explains the gap starting with SS-491 thru SS-521 as well as gaps between SS-427 and SS-434 as well as SS-438 thru SS-474 

SS-522 AMBERJACK, SS-523 GRAMPUS, SS-524 PICKEREL, and SS-525 GRENADIER were all stopped sometime after WWII but got a reprieve when they were completed as GUPPY-IIs.

Then SS-526 thru SS-562 were cancelled outright as part of the end of WWII - which explains yet another gap in the hull numbers.

PAMPANITO is fortunate to have a solid archive - but even then, there are significant differences between what the class plans and booklet of general plans might show and the configuration as the boat really had. Since TENCH was the next class of diesel boats and was quite similar to BALAO class, I have to conclude that the same sort of information glitches also existed with TENCH boats.

Dpeneding on whose version you read, for example, VOLADOR had high speed motors and reduction gears, low speed direct drive motors, three main engines, four main engines, a dinky, no dinky, 252 battery cells, 504 battery cells, two wells, three wells, a solid cubicle, a split cubicle, a 5" deck gun, no deck gun at all, ad nauseam. Having qualified both silver and gold in VOLADOR, I think my notebooks have the real facts.

This sort of confusion exists with many TENCH boats that were stopped at war's end, then completed in the late 40s as GUPPY-Is or IIs. Again, I'm absolutely persuaded that the best source of reliable information comes from shipyard photography of sea trials immediately following new construction and major overhauls - or from authors who conduct meticulous research and verify their "facts" - ala Jim Christley.

So here are a few questions for you detail buffs -- (TENCH class includes those commissioned as GUPPYs)

1) How many Portsmouth-built TENCH boats were actually commissioned?

2) How many EB-built TENCH boats were actually commissioned?

3) Boston Navy Yard built 4 TENCH boats, but commissioned only 3 - what happened to the 4th boat that was finally commissioned?

4) What other WWII building yard actually delivered TENCH boats into commission? How many?



Edited by SOB490 2009-10-23 5:08 PM
Ric
Posted 2009-10-23 8:35 PM (#31741 - in reply to #31736)


Plankowner

Posts: 9165

Location: Upper lefthand corner of the map.
Subject: Tench Boats

Hull Name Class Yard Comm/NoComm
417 Tench Tench PNSY C
418 Thornback Tench PNSY C
419 Tigrone Tench PNSY C
420 Tirante Tench PNSY C
421 Trutta Tench PNSY C
422 Toro Tench PNSY C
423 Torsk Tench PNSY C
424 Quillback Tench PNSY C
425 Trumpetfish Tench CRAMP C
426 Tusk Tench CRAMP C
427 Turbot Tench CRAMP NC
428 Ulua Tench CRAMP NC
429 Unicorn Tench CRAMP NC
430 Vendace Tench CRAMP NC
431 Walrus Tench CRAMP NC
432 Whitefish Tench CRAMP NC
433 Whiting Tench CRAMP NC
434 Wolffish Tench CRAMP NC
435 Corsair Tench EB C
436 Unicorn Tench EB NC
437 Walrus Tench EB NC
438 - 457 No Name Tench EB Cancelled
458 – 463 No Name Tench MAN Cancelled
464 Chicolar Tench MAN Cancelled
465 – 474 No Name Tench MAN Cancelled
475 Argonaut Tench PNSY C
476 Runner Tench PNSY C
477 Conger Tench PNSY C
478 Cutlass Tench PNSY C
479 Diablo Tench PNSY C
480 Medregal Tench PNSY C
481 Requin Tench PNSY C
482 Irex Tench PNSY C
483 Sea Leopard TENCH PNSY C
484 ODAX TENCH PNSY C
485 Sirago Tench PNSY C
486 Pomodon Tench PNSY C
487 Remora Tench PNSY C
488 Sarda Tench PNSY C
489 Spinax Tench PNSY C
490 Volador Tench PNSY C
491 Pompano Tench PNSY Cancelled
492 Grayling Tench PNSY Cancelled
493 Needlefish Tench PNSY Cancelled
494 Sculpin Tench PNSY Cancelled
495 – 515 No Name Tench PNSY Cancelled
516 Wahoo Tench MNSY Cancelled
517 No Name Tench MNSY Cancelled
518 – 521 No Name Tench MNSY Cancelled
522 Amberjack Tench BNS C
523 Grampus Tench BNS C
524 Pickerel Tench BNS C
525 Grenadier Tench BNS C
526 Dorado Tench BNS Cancelled
527 Comber Tench BNS Cancelled
528 Sea Panther Tench BNS Cancelled
529 Tiburon Tench BNS Cancelled

Gil
Posted 2009-10-23 9:08 PM (#31742 - in reply to #31725)
Master and Commander

Posts: 1606

Subject: RE: HELP!!!!

Thanks Gentlemen!!!

You guys never let me down and I am always amazed by the amount of information you guys possess.

609EM1
Posted 2009-10-23 9:17 PM (#31743 - in reply to #31736)


Senior Crew

Posts: 173

Location: Humboldt,Mi
Subject: RE: HELP!!!!

SOB490 - 2009-10-23 8:05 PM

So here are a few questions for you detail buffs -- (TENCH class includes those commissioned as GUPPYs)

1) How many Portsmouth-built TENCH boats were actually commissioned?

2) How many EB-built TENCH boats were actually commissioned?

3) Boston Navy Yard built 4 TENCH boats, but commissioned only 3 - what happened to the 4th boat that was finally commissioned?

4) What other WWII building yard actually delivered TENCH boats into commission? How many?

My research shows there were 29 Tench class submarines commissioned.......

1...Portsmouth built 24 + completed SS-524 from Boston.

2...EB built one---SS-435

3...SS-524 was sent to Portsmouth for completion and commissioning.

4...None....SS-425 & SS-426 were Balao class  which were built at Cramp Shipbuilding Co.

SOB490
Posted 2009-10-24 10:20 AM (#31746 - in reply to #31725)


Old Salt

Posts: 489

Location: San Freakcisco CA area
Subject: RE: HELP!!!!

>>>...None....SS-425 & SS-426 were Balao class  which were built at Cramp Shipbuilding Co.

Glad to see that someone is checking the facts! You win the golden rivet for the week. Those two were the post-SS-417 hull number, non-TENCH gotchas!

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